Color-coded Subject Visualization

Click a colored circle/subject to see corresponding sections. You can also filter by subject and view/print related contents below.

Filter by vietnam - On the Vietnam War vietnam
Filter by crm - On the Civil Rights Movement crm
Filter by movements - On political and cutultural movements movements
Filter by media - On media and media consumption media
Filter by coldwar - On reactions to the Cold War coldwar
Filter by gender - On gender and gender roles gender
Filter by religion - On religion religion
Filter by politics - On politics politics
Filter by assassination - On assassinations assassination
Filter by perception - On historical/cultural perceptions perception
Filter by childhood - On childhood (added) childhood
Filter by family - On family matters (added) family
Filter by military - On the military (added) military
Filter by music - On music (added) music
Filter by dating - On dating (added) dating
Filter by counterculture - On the counterculture (added) counterculture
Filter by school - On Education (added) school
Filter by community - On community (added) community
Filter by assasination - On assasinations (added) assasination
Filter by television - On television (added) television
Filter by sports - On sports (added) sports
Filter by toys - On toys (added) toys
Filter by parents - On parents (added) parents



Jane Beebe, Ron Beebe Click to filter

Okay, it should be going. Let me get a secondary recording going just in case. Now it says this meeting is being recorded and I have to click okay, I guess. Alright. Wait a minute, I lost your voice. You there? Yes, there is my microphone working all right? Okay, so I don't we don't have to keep our heads close together, you know what we look like, you just want to get the message of what we're saying. Yeah, yeah, exactly, just the words are the most important part. So to start, we have just a little bit of an oral consent form I'm just going to run through really quick and just have you guys agree to it if that's all right. So let me just read it aloud and and let me know if that's all right. Participation in this project is voluntary. You may withdraw from the project at the end of the interview or at any time. Duration of the interview will only last up to 60 minutes. It doesn't have to be that long. But the interview will be recorded and transcribed. A copy of each will be made available to both of you. The recording of the interview may contain material which you hold copyright. You may transfer copyright of this material to University of Idaho if you so choose. Transcriptions will be made available to the entire class for research purposes, and they will then be preserved by our special collections and archives. And the University of Idaho students, faculty and staff, as well as researchers visiting the special collections and archives may use the interview for research, educational, promotional, or other purpose deemed appropriate. Does that all sound good to you guys? Yes. Of course. Wonderful, thank you so much, appreciate that. Well, let's hop right into it. What year were each of you guys born? Okay, I was born March 9th, 1942.(Subjects: childhood) G: Okay. And I was born in 1944.(Subjects: childhood) S:Okay, wonderful. So you both be what? Grammy is 80 and I'm 82. Okay, okay. So Pop, you were like 18 going into 1960 and Grammy, you were 16? Yes.(Subjects: childhood) Okay, very cool. So not far off on my age. So what was that like starting off your lives right into the 1960s? That was a fun year, I thought, because I graduated from high school in 1960. And, um, I was going to go off to college and I did for six months and it wasn't for me.(Subjects: childhood) Okay. And then I went right to work.(Subjects: jobs) Wow. Uh, where did you go? Insurance company, insurance company of North America, which was in Philadelphia.(Subjects: jobs) Okay, okay. I think when my dad and I watched the film Philadelphia, he showed me one of the buildings. He said Pop worked at an insurance company there that I thought was pretty cool. Yeah. And how long were you with the insurance company? 32 years full-time.(Subjects: jobs) Wow. Oh my goodness. That's a solid career. Yeah. I retired when I was 57 and they asked me to work part-time two days a week, a total of 14 hours a week.(Subjects: jobs) That's pretty good. And I did that for 10 years.(Subjects: jobs) Wow. And so Grammy, you would graduate high school in 1962 then?(Subjects: school) That's correct. So what kind of foods did you guys eat regularly growing up?(Subjects: childhood) We had, our, my dad was a blue collar worker. He was a sheet metal worker. So we grew up with meat and potatoes.(Subjects: childhood) Okay, nice. Yeah, absolutely. And Pop? Yeah, my family, I was the only child, but my dad had to have meat and he had to have potatoes. And he loved peas, which that's what I learned to hate.(Subjects: childhood) That's funny. I love peas. Were there any restaurants or diners you guys loved to visit in the 1960s? It was called the Hot Shops.(Subjects: food) The Hot Shops? Yeah, it was in the suburbs of Philadelphia. So it wasn't actually in Philadelphia. It was in Upper Darby, a suburb of Philadelphia. And it was a gathering place for young people. You would pull up and pull a tray over to your window.(Subjects: food) Okay. And speak your order in and then a young lady would bring it to you and you would sit there with it sitting on the tray. It was on a tray but it was hooked right to the side of your door where the window was.(Subjects: food) Absolutely that's cool. And what kind of food just like hamburgers and fries and stuff? Yeah milkshakes hamburgers typical teenage food. There was another I call it a fast food restaurant called ginos.(Subjects: food) and they would have sandwiches and hoogies and they would make steak sandwiches. But basically hamburgers. Hamburgers, yeah.(Subjects: food) It was kind of like the first McDonald's before McDonald's came out.(Subjects: food) I see, absolutely. It wasn't a chain, it was just a local shop. Oh, very cool. And now… And the more up-to-date and upscale restaurant was called Timbers.(Subjects: food) That's where Grammy and I had our wedding reception in 1965. They had steaks and all the stuff that wealthy people would eat.(Subjects: food) But you know, there was another one called Horn and Hard Arts. It was a very unique place where you put your money in a slot and then you'd open the window and the sandwiches or the desserts or whatever.(Subjects: food) were behind the window so you could look at all of the selections and then you put your money in and then you took out which one. And that was very unique for the time frame because you wouldn't see anything like that now.(Subjects: food) yeah, it was like a restaurant vending machine or something.(Subjects: food) That's what it was. Yeah, absolutely. Yep. But that was always cool. That was kind of our family place to go because it was like you had all these selections right in front of you to pick from.(Subjects: food) So did you guys both grow up in the Philly area? I grew up in Southwest Philadelphia.(Subjects: childhood) Okay. And I grew up in Overbrook. Which would be in West Philadelphia.(Subjects: childhood) And now over the course of the 1960s, did you guys see any shift in the way like restaurants did business or how food was prepared? I think there were more and more fast food places that started opening up and they were everywhere.(Subjects: food) Yeah, I remember when I was growing up a very unique pharmacy that you could go into and they had booze and you could get ice cream served there or you could get sandwiches served there in a pharmacy. Which was very unique. (Subjects: food) And now have you guys always gone to church?(Subjects: religion) I was in church from the time I was born.(Subjects: religion) Wow, and Pop the same? No, neither my mother or father went to church, but my mother made sure that I went to church and would drop me off at the church. But I rarely stayed for the service. We would take up collection at the church.(Subjects: religion) and we would sneak off to a restaurant to have coffee and pie and then come back in time to take the collection. But I didn't learn much by going to church in those days. And how has going to church and just religion in general had a positive impact on your guys' lives? Well, it changed our view from a different worldview as far as how we should be living our lives and the values that we had. And again, it was based on what God's Word had to say that we tried to live that way and apply it to our lives. That would be what I would say.(Subjects: religion) Absolutely. And I think values change over time. When we got married in 1965 and started attending church together, we learned values from the different churches that we were And that began to shape our outlook on what was right, what was wrong. And it helped us to notify, identify things that people were doing that were not according to what the Bible had to say.(Subjects: religion) So from that standpoint, it began to shape our outlook on life. Very cool. so how did you guys meet if you married in 1965? Well, when I was in high school, when I was a senior, they had a program called a co-op program. So I was not in the college of, I don't know, root or whatever you would call it, track, that's it. I was in what they called the clerical track. And so they gave us the opportunity that I worked at Insurance Company of North America one week and then the next week I went to school. So I ended up working at the insurance company North America. And then once I graduated, because I had already been employed there, they offered me a position. And so then I ended up taking that position.(Subjects: jobs) Wow. Okay. And I had already graduated from high school when I was looking for a job and started to work for the insurance company of North America in a clerical position. And that's where Grammy and I met, because we were in the same department, not in the same unit, but the same department. Very cool. How long after you guys met did you start dating? Well, I graduated in 1962 and then 1963 was when we started dating. Yep. I guess it was probably a couple of months afterward because Grammy was into roller skating and I was too and there was a roller skating rink and we knew each other from work. But then we bumped into each other at the roller skating rink. And then we started skating around together at the roller skating rink. And then eventually we started to date. Very cool. And then you'd get married in 1965. So when did you ask Grammy to get married, Pop? In 1964. And we waited a year to get married to save up some money. And just to make sure that we were gonna be compatible. We continued dating quite often all throughout that time. Very cool. What was the... Lost your voice. Okay. So what was the proposal like, Pop? Where'd you ask her to marry you? It was in a glider on the front porch. Oh, the back porch. Oh, the front porch. It was right there in the front porch, right at the street level. And I asked her to marry me and said yes. I'm losing, I can't hear you right now. Now I lost you, now we lost you. I'm losing my audio. Course with Zoom. Okay, that should be better now. Oh my goodness. Now you're back. You're back. All right, I'm back. Just covering the proposal. Yeah, so, yeah, so I asked Grammy to marry me and she said yes. And we, I think we told my mother first and then we told your mother and father. Which was not good. So how different... I lost your voice again. Oh my goodness, one sec. Yeah, now you're back. I don't know, seems to go in and out. Okay. All right. Do you read me now? Yes, we can hear you. Okay. I think we should be good. I think my microphone was just unplugging a little bit. So I reconnected it. So we should be good now. So how different was it for you guys to buy like groceries and gas and other essentials compared to today? P: Well, I know I didn't have to buy any groceries because I lived at home. And my mother took and father took care of that.(Subjects: food) But the one thing I remembered is I had a car when I was 16. Yeah. And the price of gas was 25 cents a gallon.(Subjects: money) Wow. That is wild. For a dollar, I could fill up and my friends and I could go riding all around for a dollar.(Subjects: money) That's really cool. So what car did you have when you were 16? I had a 48 Hudson.(Subjects: cars) And so how much were you making when gas was 25 cents a gallon? Um, I really wasn't working at the time until after I finished high school. Yeah. But, um, I think it was, uh, $2,600 a year. Okay. $4,800 a year. Yeah. When I first started out, that's the small amount. But one thing that was very unique where I grew up was.(Subjects: money) there were grocery stores on various corners because a lot of people didn't have cars. Yeah. And so local shopping was very popular. There really weren't any big supermarkets close to where I lived. And we used to have a wagon that we would pull to the grocery store and then load the wagon up and bring it back home again. (Subjects: food) Wow. So like no plastic grocery bags or anything. You could take the wagon and that's wild, that's cool. The one thing I remembered is going to the grocery store. Well, it's small corner stores. There was one close to us and you could go in and buy a tasty cake, which is something that's still in existence today.(Subjects: food) I like a tasty cake. Tasty cakes are good. I like the chocolate and peanut butter ones. the tasty cake crimpet was 15 cents and you got three in the package. And if you bought a pie, it was a quarter. It was a small pie in a cardboard box with cellophane across the seal. They were mostly fruit pies.(Subjects: food) So my dad told me, Pop, that he's always told me that you were in the Air Force. What year did you join? I joined in 1961. I had gone to college for six months and I had a major of accounting and I failed accounting. So I figured, well, that wasn't for me. So I enlisted in the Air Force to learn a trade. And when I signed up, I was supposed to be a telephone poleman. But of course, the military has other ideas. You fill the need that they have at the time. And I became a painter.. I painted houses. I painted trucks. I painted airplanes.(Subjects: military) Yeah. Painted lines down for the airplanes to land on, on the flight line.(Subjects: military) Wow. I didn't know that. That's, that's cool. What was your experience of joining like? Did you have to go through like training and all that? I had to go to basic training in Lackland Air Force Base, Texas. And it was in the September timeframe and it was extremely hot.(Subjects: military) Yeah, I can only imagine. There was a hurricane coming through and we were on standby to help people that had damage done as a result of the hurricane, but we never had to go anywhere.(Subjects: military) Wow. So how long were you in the Air Force total? Well, a little background before my father died after he came out and visited me where I was stationed in Salina, Kansas. Yeah. And he died of a heart attack while he was there. And my mother and she was having psychological problems as a result of the loss and I was the only child. So a family doctor called me and asked me to see if I could get out of the military and after three years I had a hardship discharge to come home to be with mom.(Subjects: military) Excerpt Redacted So during the time you would have been in Kansas, the Cuban Missile Crisis of course, of course occurred in 1962. What do you remember from that? (Subjects: cuba) Well, that was the base that I was assigned to had what they called KC 97 air refueling planes, which were prop and they had B 47s, which were bombers. And there was a wing of each, but during the Cuban Missile Crisis, all the bombers took off and were flown to.(Subjects: cuba) somewhere in Texas and Florida, and all the air refueling planes from other squadrons came to our base. And you weren't allowed to leave the base, you had to stay there. Yeah. And there were restrictive areas that you couldn't go into. They had what they called military police with German Shepherd dogs that make sure you didn't go in a place you weren't supposed to. But it was, everybody was very busy and(Subjects: cuba) You didn't leave the base at all. And we didn't know whether war was going to turn out or not. (Subjects: cuba) Grammy, what do you remember from that time? I don't remember anything. *she laughs*(Subjects: cuba) That's all right. I wasn't a part of my life because what was that, 1962?(Subjects: cuba) So I was in school. So I was just totally oblivious to what was happening around me. Yeah, absolutely. I was busy having fun.(Subjects: cuba) Yeah, oh my goodness, that's wild. Yeah. So then, that would lead into the Vietnam War pretty quickly. What do you remember from that?(Subjects: vietnam) I remember there were some guys that were in the area that I was in, and they wanted to go to Vietnam. And they had to qualify shooting a 45 automatic handgun.(Subjects: vietnam) And what I remember is the one young man that wanted to go really bad, failed the test three times before he finally could hit the target at that time. And then he went off to Vietnam and I lost track of him. But very few of the people on the base that I was located at went, was mostly army and Navy that was involved in Vietnam. Airforce pilots, but not the everyday ordinary airmen.(Subjects: vietnam) Grammy, what do you remember from the Vietnam War? Very little impact. Not many of my friends, not many people in the community were really impacted by it. Wow, OK. I didn't expect that.(Subjects: vietnam) I don't know if it's because we were so young that they really wouldn't have really qualified to be a part of it, because I was two years younger. But I honestly did not know anybody that was involved with the Vietnam War.(Subjects: vietnam) That's interesting. From my perspective, when I read about the Vietnam War, it feels like everybody got involved. Yeah, that's all everyone was talking about, that everyone coming out of high school was getting sent off. That's a really interesting perspective Yep. I honestly could not tell you one of my classmates that went into the war. Now we know people who were in the war, but back then I didn't know anybody. Yeah.(Subjects: vietnam) So Pop, of course, you being in the military, you're a little bit more on the pulse of the fact that we're going into the Vietnam War. Did you have any particular feelings about it or any memories of certain feelings? I didn't have a whole lot of understanding what the war was about and why we were there. I just knew that some of the guys were wanting to go. That was beyond me, why you would want to go into a hostile area where they're shooting. As an Air Force person, you were just where the planes were. You weren't in the jungle or anything. But at the time, there were a lot of a lot of discontent in the general population. Yeah. Because young men were dying in the jungle and being shot in Vietnam and a lot of body bags were coming back. And that was, why are we there? Let them fight their own war.(Subjects: vietnam) was the kind of attitude. And it got to the point where if somebody came home or leave and wore their military uniform, they were criticized and ostracized and very angry and hostile that they were fighting a war in a foreign country. And there was a lot of population who were spending all that money.(Subjects: vietnam) there for nothing. It's not going to help us. So that was kind of the general attitude. And I have to say this is the first war that when men returned, they weren't considered heroes. But after the First World War, Second World War and Korea, the veterans were as heroes, but not Vietnam. (Subjects: vietnam) Wow. That's wild. I never thought about it in that lens. I've heard about that in readings and stuff of soldiers coming back and wearing their uniforms and getting like tomatoes thrown at them and stuff, people screaming at them. Yeah. But I never considered that was the first war where it was, there was a negative take on veterans. That's wild. And Jane Fonda was a very loud voice in opposition to it. And a lot of people in Hollywood then joined her and she was very, very, very vocal.(Subjects: counterculture) And I think she kind of like was the spearhead to get people to be so opposed to it. (Subjects: counterculture) So speaking of Hollywood a little bit, what movies and films do you guys remember watching around that time? Well, I think the one wasn't the Carlton Heston movie. El Cid.(Subjects: media) with the chariots running around it. I forget what that was called now. I think that was in the 60s, wasn't it?(Subjects: media) John Wayne was, I think, the one that I can remember most being popular in the 60s. There were war movies. A lot of, and even the Western movies. Yeah. Yeah. Westerns were very big in the 60s. Very big in the 60s.(Subjects: media) Yeah, I remember watching some John Wayne films at your guys' house when I was younger. That was like my introduction to Westerns for sure was with you guys, with John Wayne. Do you remember the Green Berets with John Wayne in it?Yes. That was like the, you know, a big Vietnam piece at the time that was sort of pro-war. I remember we were talking about it in class and it was pretty heavily criticized as like, you know, kind of going against all of the counterculture , the people that were against the war. They did not like the film, the Green Berets, because it was so like positive about it. (Subjects: media) So the first date that Uncle Ron and I had was to see McClintock, which was a John Wayne movie. Wow. That we had.(Subjects: media) Oh, that's cool. Very cool. So around this time, of course, JFK is president starting in 1960. What do you remember about his presidency? How did you feel about him in general?(Subjects: jfk) Well, that was something like you asked about what was happening during that time. And because he was the first Catholic that ever ran for president, that was a major ordeal. And that was something that people were always a little bit of in opposition to, because in the past there had never been a Roman Catholic that had run for president. (Subjects: jfk) Yeah, no, we talked about that in class. My professor asked why was like JFK such a controversial president. And I don't know where I'd read it, but I remember answering that question in class because he was an Irish Catholic. And we'd never had, you know, like an “ethnic” president for lack of a better term.(Subjects: jfk) Yeah. Yeah. I was in a friend's house in the neighborhood where I grew up and came into his living room and(Subjects: jfk) television was on and then they broke into the news and they showed the shooting of Kennedy in the limousine and his Jackie Kennedy trying to climb out of the limousine and they would show it over and over and over again. That was and then of course all the conspiracy theories.(Subjects: jfk) How many shooters were there? Yeah. Was Oswald the only one? And who put them up to it? And was there a money trail and all kinds of things? Yeah, absolutely. It was the CIA involved and all that. It was in the news not that long ago that they thought they had uncovered some new evidence that supported that there was more than one shooter.(Subjects: jfk) Yeah, wow. That's crazy. I didn't realize that they played it on TV like that. I don't think they would show it. I mean, it feels like the, you know, like 9-11, the World Trade Center attack. They even showed on television when they were taking Oswald from one jail to another place. And there were all these newspaper people and stuff in this room. And Jack Ruby, point blank, shot and killed him.(Subjects: jfk) Yeah, I've seen both pieces of footage from just being in history class. We've seen them. So, Grammy, where were you when you found out that Kennedy was shot?(Subjects: jfk) I was still in school because it was 1963 and it was a Friday. So I was still in school. So I didn't find out until I got home from my mom's home.(Subjects: jfk) Alright, wait, can you hear me now? We're good? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Cool. I like bumped my arm on my microphone. And it was my speakers somehow for disconnecting my microphone. So you said you were still in in school when that happened.(Subjects: jfk) I was still in school. So I didn't find out until I got home. And my mom wasn't a TV watcher. She always had the radio on. So it was when I got home, she had heard on the radio.(Subjects: jfk) Like, I mean, honestly, everybody went into mourning, everything shut down. I mean, a store shut down, businesses were not operating, movie theaters were not available for shows. I mean, it was just like everybody went into mourning.(Subjects: jfk) Yeah. Wow. That's that. That's crazy. I can't even imagine in, you know, compared to today, you know.(Subjects: jfk) So moving on to the civil rights movement a little bit, something we've been talking a lot about in class. What do you guys remember from the civil rights movement of MLK and the March on Washington and all that?(Subjects: crm) Well, there was a lot going on and a lot of different things in the news. The, um, there was a, uh, uh, a black woman on a bus that sat in front of the bus when she wasn't supposed to. Yeah. And, um, she was arrested and then there were, uh, some, uh, there was a, um, Oh, I can't think of his name right now. He was governor of, um, Alabama. Alabama. Yeah. I think it was.(Subjects: crm) and he was not going to allow black students to go to a white school. And then he was shot and became paralyzed and was in a wheelchair after that. So there was a lot of anger going on. And it was more in the South than in the North because the South still had that segregation mindset. And they grew up that way. And their parents were very hateful toward black people. So.(Subjects: crm) Children would just adopt the attitudes that their parents had toward it. So there was a difference between living in the North and living in the South. But when Martin Luther King was doing his marches, and then of course, when he was assassinated, that was all over TD. And it was kind of sad to see he was just a preacher that was trying to do(Subjects: mlk) what he thought was right and what the Bible was teaching him or what he was reading from the Bible and he gave his life for that.(Subjects: mlk) So that specifically resonated with you guys being Christians.? Very much so and I guess personally because both Uncle Ron, both Pop and myself, we went to schools that were very integrated.So I had a very high population of Black students in the school that I went to. So it really didn't impact us because that was just common everyday life for us to interact with them and to live with them. But there was a distinct line where people...(Subjects: crm) Black people lived on the other side of 63rd Street, and the white people lived on this side of the 63rd Street. And one thing that I remember was that a Black family moved into, they crossed the line, and they moved into the white section. And I remember people throwing rocks at their house and windows being broken.(Subjects: crm) And it got so bad that they actually had to have police stationed outside of the house because they were the first family to move into the white section and people were not not happy about it at all. (Subjects: crm) So ive heard similar things like when I was working for the Idaho Black History Museum in Boise, there was an area that was like across the tracks that was down by the river where was the same exact situation. And the guy I was working for, Philip, when his family moved across the street, they had a cross burned on their front yard and they were Baptists. Yes, they did the same thing. They had a cross that they burned there too. Yep, they did the same thing. (Subjects: crm) Shifting out of the civil rights movement a little bit, something a little more positive, what music did you guys listen to in the 1960s? Can you answer that?(Subjects: music) P: I was listening to a lot of country music in those times, but it was more, I guess there was, what was it called, Bandstand in Philadelphia where there was a place where young kids would come after school and they would dance and there were different people. They had a DJ that would play the records and then people would dance. Yeah, and they would dance and anytime a new record would come out, it would be debuted, so to speak, from the bandstand location. So there were a lot of kids would go there and it was more of cliquish, the people that went and they were filled with themselves.(Subjects: music) and wanted to be on TV. And that's their main reason for going. But there were a lot of different dances, dance movements that got started and you could see them on bandstand. And Grammy and I used to go to a Catholic church in Upper Darby, right outside of Philadelphia and close to where Grammy lived, to go to the dances. And they had slow dances, fast dances, and...(Subjects: music) They would also, what was the other dance? Cha Cha. Cha Cha dances.(Subjects: music) Pop, you a good dancer? We got into a dance contest one time. Yeah, we won the twist contest. Yeah, the twist contest. Chubby Checker.(Subjects: music) Did you win? Did you get close to winning? Yeah, we did, we won that one.(Subjects: music) You won? Oh, that's awesome. That's cool. That was like when the Beatles were really popular and, Okay. You know, it was a lot of rock and raw. I mean, I honestly listened to more, Johnny Mathis was one of my favorite musicians and he is, I think I just told Poppy's like 89 and he's still gonna be down at Atlantic City singing. Oh my goodness. I know, I was blown away. It's like, this man is still around. (Subjects: music) Johnny Mathis, okay. And then they would have, there were a couple of clubs that were not necessarily for people over 21 and they would bring some musicians in and then you could go to those locations and see them live. Bobby Rydell. He was a big one. Yeah. And Chubby Checkers and he used to have his own little dance routine for that.(Subjects: music) P: But there's something you might be interested in now is the same place where Bandstand was. Right next to that was where you would go roller skating. That's where Grammy and I met on the roller skating. Okay. And would also be converted into a wrestling ring.(Subjects: music) Whoa. And all the wrestlers that were popular at that time. That's right. Would come there to wrestle.(Subjects: wrestling) Okay, I remember my dad. I think he said that you took him to a few wrestling matches, Pop.(Subjects: wrestling) Yeah, this wouldn't be in the 60s. That would be in, you know, in the 70s and 80s. Did you ever take him to any boxing fights? No, no. We would watch boxing on TV with Muhammad Ali or Cassius Clay, as he was called then, and Frazier. And yeah, that was it was usually, I think, on Friday nights, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah. And that was the big thing. Families wanted to get home and watch the fights.(Subjects: sports) Oh, that's funny. That's what we do every Saturday now with UFC. I've got a poster of Cassius Clay in my room or Muhammad Ali. That's cool you guys gotta see that live. So how overall did you see the culture of the nation shift throughout the 1960s? What did it shift away from? What did it shift toward? Well, I think for me, what I saw was a kind of a movement of people moving from a city to the country, to the suburbs. And that happened a lot during the 60s where, again, because there was that, I'm going to call it infringement of different people, other than the Irish or Scottish or English moving into the area. And so consequently it was, they lost their identity because the culture changed and a lot of Italians moved into where I was. And then when that black family moved in, I think people were threatened that this now was going to change their environment. So there was a vast exit of people moving to the suburbs from the area that I lived in. Okay, we've read about that exact phenomenon. I think they call it urban flight. Yes, yes. We've talked about that pretty extensively.

Eldon Bindley Click to filter

Ok, this is Jacob Bindley, it is September 22nd and I am interviewing Eldon Bindley about his life and experience in the 1960s. So just to start off, where were you born and raised?(Subjects: Background ) I was born in Glenwood Springs, Colorado and my race is Native American and White.(Subjects: Background ) Where were you raised? Sorry.(Subjects: Background ) Oh I'm sorry, my hearing is bad I apologize. I was raised in Eagle, Colorado. (Subjects: Background ) Ok, tell me a little bit about Eagle. What was the town like?(Subjects: Background ) Eagle was a farming community back when I was a child. My first ten years, well actually, first fifteen years, I lived there it was almost strictly an agricultural community. It was the county seat, Eagle county. We were a small ranching community, on the Western slope of Colorado. Our town population as I was growing up was between four and six hundred people and so it was very small, very small, community with, you know, very close knit community. As I was being raised in 1962, Vail, was established, Vail, Colorado the ski area. And then, so about 1965, late 60s, we started becoming a bedroom community for the ski area, the employees started moving into town as they couldn't afford to live up-valley due to a lack of housing, affordable housing, so we were a bedroom community at that point. (Subjects: Background ) Ok. And basically, being raised in a small town is wonderful. I can remember my childhood that we were turned loose during the day because every mother in town was watching us. In fact, in the summers mothers would kick us out of the house about nine o'clock in the morning and tell us not to come back until noon. And we'd go find our friends and play at the park and run around town and play at different places, people's houses. Our town had a fire siren that alerted the volunteer fire department and they had it set to go off at noon everyday. So as a child we were trained that when the fire siren went off, everybody ran for home to have lunch and then we'd go back out in the afternoons to play some more. So it was a very, very unsupervised childhood that we had to make our own games and, very creative, of course there wasn't, there wasn't a lot of other activities other than that. Television in our valley, didn't come into our valley, until the early 60s and it came in, the first TV we had, that I remember as a child was one channel. And eventually we did end up with the three major networks, but it was transmitted from Denver and through a translator and it was snowy and there was times you couldn't hardly see it. And of course it was a big deal for us, but it was something our lives didn't really revolve around at that point. We were more revolved around our social interaction with other children being raised like that. (Subjects: Background ) So just to pivot a little bit, talking about TV, what kind of TV shows did you watch at the time? (Subjects: Media ) Well, the TV shows that I can remember, TV during the day in my house wasn't allowed to be on. So the only time that the TV, mom would let the TV be on, would be Saturday mornings she'd let it be on for a couple hours, for Saturday morning cartoons. And there were, you know, a variety of different cartoons that, that all of us revolved around. I can't remember exactly which ones they were at this time but Saturday morning cartoons, and then the family at night would watch, after dinner, we'd watch TV and of course we always had our favorites and shows like Bonanza, a lot of sitcoms like I Dream of Jeannie and, off the top of my head, and Leave It to Beaver, and different shows like that, that were typical 60s shows, sitcoms, westerns were big, Gunsmoke was on and Bonanza, and so that was basically the shows. Lawrence Welk on Sunday nights was a must see for the family. Or Saturday night was Lawrence Welk and then Ed Sullivan on Sunday nights was really big. Sunday night, Ed Sullivan baby. (Subjects: Media ) Nice We never missed, if we were home we had it on, so there you go. (Subjects: Media) Talking about your family a little bit, what was the structure of your family, how many siblings did you have and yeah?(Subjects: Background ) Ok, family was made up of Mom and Dad. At the time I was in grade school, up until I want to say about fourth or fifth grade, Mom was a stay-at-home mom and Dad was the local barber in town, he had his own business. I had an older brother, an older sister, I was the youngest in the family and they were, my sister was six years older and my brother was four years older so there was kind of a gap there where they were closer in age so I was kinda, they spent more time together than I did with them, I was kinda the tag along, and they tried to figure out how to get rid of me. So [laughs] so that was the structure and then, like I say, when I about in fourth or fifth grade my mother then went to work full-time and we became a two-income family. (Subjects: Background) Ok, I guess kind of moving off talking about your mom working and everything, we talk a lot nowadays about the feminist movement, and how it came to be in the 60s. What were your memories of that movement, with your mom taking a job and everything, and how it affected gender roles for instance. Did that change a lot in your town at the time? (Subjects: Gender) Well in our household it changed a lot. What happened was when my mom went to work, she was working in the Assessor's office. And one of the problems she ran into a lot was that there was unequal pay. She was getting paid less for doing the same job as the men that she was working with. Which was a frequent complaint, even if she was, had seniority and knew more about the job, they still paid her less and the men more. The assessor at the time was a male and he referred to it as 'well they have families to support and so they deserve more money than women'. I can remember that being a really big deal with Mom because she'd bring that up a lot with Dad and I'd listen to their conversations. And then later my mom actually became Assessor. And at that point her wages went equal, because it was an elected office, went equal to other officials in town. But at that point, in the 60s, there was a lot of women, I can remember, that actually started to work and not be stay-at-home mothers because stay-at-home mothers were very common when I was young, in the first few grades and then later it wasn't so common. And I think a lot of it had to do with second income, you know, also made it easier to get along and it was more of, they can afford a few more luxuries, both of them. So I can remember that transitioning happening and in our household that happened in the mid-60s. (Subjects: Gender) Ok, so talking about family and everything, the Vietnam War is happening during the 60s and I'm just curious how did the war affect your community? And how'd your family feel about it? (Subjects: Vietnam ) The effect on it, that I remember the most is, that our community was a very conservative community, very patriotic. Most of the men in the community had served during World War Two, my dad was a veteran of World War Two. So the support for the war when it first started was very, I know my dad really supported the war because it was put across that we were stopping communism which was a big, really big deal in his mind because he'd been part of the army that had been drafted to stop the Germans and Nazism. So communism was high, and he interpreted the war as being necessary to keep communism from spreading. Later on in the war, the war in his eyes, and this is looking at it as how its coming across to me, cause I was still fairly young, I remember in his eyes, when they didn't really go all out and fight the war as a war and go in and just invade North Vietnam, his support for the war started to go away because he didn't see it as we were actually fighting a war, we were just sacrificing money and so the support started to decline. And I think that was true throughout our community and I know then, later on, the late 60s, when I was in high school, I had friends that were drafted, served in Vietnam. And I know the support was going down very quickly, a lot of people didn't want to go. And I myself would've went if I'd been drafted but the time I was of draft age, the war had ended which was I think in 72, 73, whatever, but I became eligible and at that time they'd stopped drafting so I was never called. (Subjects: Vietnam ) Leading up to when you obviously weren't called, were you scared about the possibility of being drafted and sent over to Vietnam? Or did it not, how did that kind of come into your life, how did you think about it? (Subjects: Vietnam ) I never gave it much thought. As I recall now I was never paranoid one way or the other about it. I guess, like I say, I had friends that were drafted and served and a couple of them went to Nam you know but we didn't have any real casualties come back to the community that I can remember. And I guess it never really dawned on me, I never, I don't recall ever worrying about being drafted.(Subjects: Vietnam ) Ok, were there any kind of anti-war protests or anything in the surrounding area where you were in Eagle or anything? Any kind of draft card burning, things like that? (Subjects: Vietnam ) There wasn't. Our community back then was, on all issues, we were up in the mountains, so to speak, we were years behind the main culture. So even like when the drugs started in the 60s, it didn't get into our valley until, like I wasn't really exposed to drug use in high school, it didn't actually make it into our high schools until I was out in the mid 70s. Even though in the mid 60s and late 60s it was going on across the nation. Same with the war protests, never really hit our area. You'd read about them, see it on TV, but it was nothing that was an occurrence in our community. (Subjects: Culture) Ok, so with the 60s we have a lot of Vietnam War protests and different movements going on, how did it feel for example with like the Civil Rights Movement that was going on at the time. How did it feel for you to watch that unfold throughout the 1960s?(Subjects: CRM, movements ) The Civil Rights Movement was something that I never fully understood. We were a white community, like I say it was small, and when I was growing up there were no Blacks in our community we did have a small amount of Hispanics. But they were, they weren't really, I don't recall a lot of prejudice against them, I remember a couple of my friends were Hispanic and I never gave it much thought about it. So our community was not exposed, I'm sure there was really a lot of racial bias. I do remember throughout that there were, people were commonly using derogatory terms for other races. And we never gave it much thought, we as kids even used them. And so when the whole Civil Rights Movement thing, it was something that we watched and followed closely on TV and stuff because of how it was coming down and of course the Martin Luther King speech was really discussed in school and but it really had no impact on me personally because I was never really exposed to any of the Jim Crow laws or anything like that, because there wasn't anything in our community. Like I say, the prejudice, I don't recall any real prejudice in the community cause there wasn't anyone to be prejudiced against. (Subjects: CRM, movements ) So kind of going back to the start of the interview, when you were talking about your dad talking about communism and everything, what was your community's reaction to the threat of nuclear warfare during the Cold War. Because I know a lot of schools did hiding under the desk and different drills and things, how did the Cold War affect your community in the 60s? (Subjects: Cold War ) You know, I recall that now, in our community there was actually a person was appointed, kind of the emergency response director I guess, whatever. Buildings had different decals that kind of indicated, the county courthouse had areas that were designated that could be, they considered that maybe was, the basement of the courthouse could be a fallout shelter and they had it stocked with provisions. I remember that. I remember that in school there were drills. Not so much, I don't recall the drills I've heard other people talk about get under your desk type of thing but they were talked more about where to go in the community if there was an emergency. And they had different places that they had. I remember that there were different things like, I can remember Popular Mechanics, my dad always had a subscription to Popular Mechanics for his clientele in the barber shop and he'd bring them home and I'd read them and even in that magazine, there was "how to build a fallout shelter". I still remember that, how you could build your own and what to stock it with in case of nuclear war. So it was something that the community was aware of but was not paranoid about, I think because of where we lived and it wasn't like we lived next to anything major, we thought, the closest thing we had that maybe they'd go after was NORAD. Which was across the mountain range, a hundred-something miles away. (Subjects: Cold War) Ok, so what do you remember about the Cuban Missile Crisis? About that kind of time back then? (Subjects: Cold War) I was really young during the Cuban Missile Crisis. I was, what, that happened early 60s so I'd have been eight to ten years old during that time. What I recall mostly about it was, you know, the coverage on TV about it and that kind of thing. I can remember that there was a heightened awareness about what was happening. I can remember a lot of conversations with the adults about the faceoff that was going on in Cuba but it never really, you know I really don't recall a lot about it other than that. It was on the news every night, when we watched the news on TV, you know that was a big thing about the missiles and the spy planes going over and that but I recall that, one of the things I recall is that, the facedown at that point, that when Russia pulled back it seemed to be a big relief for the adults. (Subjects: Cold War) Ok, so you mentioned you're quite young at this time, and I was just wondering do you remember when JFK was shot in 63? (Subjects: Politics ) I do, I do. We were in school, and so I'd have been eleven years old so fourth or fifth grade. And I remember that that actually happened, where I heard about it, we were actually at recess. I still recall I was outside when the kids started talking about it and then of course when we went back into our classroom then the teachers made the announcement that that'd happened. And then of course watching everything unfold on the news, because of course every night that was really covered. And of course I can recall everything, I can recall them showing on the news when Jack Ruby assassinated Oswald and all that going on. And LBJ being sworn in, of course that was shown, and that still sticks in my mind. I watched the funeral of JFK on TV, remember very vividly, what stuck in my mind was they had a horse with saddle with the boots and stirrups backwards. And just that whole procession, how it proceeded. So I really recall all that, of course they did show him getting shot on TV so it was quite a deal there. Lot of it stuck in my mind. (Subjects: Politics ) Yeah wow, I'm sure. So with the 60s we have all these different changes, obviously with JFK getting shot, all these major events. Did the 60s feel Earth-shattering at the time, living through them? Did it feel out of the ordinary? (Subjects: Perception ) Because it was my childhood it felt normal. I didn't know any different because the 60s, start of the 60s I was eight. In the 70s I was eighteen, so that point in time I had no reference for. The only reference I had was that was the period of time of my life. So looking back after I got older, I can judge it that way. But at the time I was living it, this was just, when you're going through periods of that time its just a normal thing when you're a child because you don't know any different. (Subjects: Perception ) That makes sense. So pivoting to, we talked a little bit about culture for instance. What kind of music did you listen to at the time, what was kind of popular music for you at the time? (Subjects: Media) Well in our school there was two genres of music. We had country western that was very popular and then of course we had the rock, which was The Beatles and The Who. So I hung out with both cowboys and hippies. So I actually listened to both genres of music, country western and rock, depending on what group I was with. A lot of my friends were ranch kids and were into the country western and then some of them were part of the hippie movement, which they were trying to simulate what they saw on TV and try to catch up with that part of it too. (Subjects: Media) Ok, ok, so kind of going off that culture thread still, what was dating like back then? What were kind of the norms of dating, I know they've changed a lot over the years and decades and everythign. What do you remember about that time and what the norms were around dating and everything? (Subjects: Culture) Well I know when I started dating we did have a movie theater in the town so one of the big things was, go to the movies. Or we would go down to the local hangout, kind of like a Dairy Queen, wasn't a Dairy Queen but it was a small cafe type of thing. We had dances and stuff at school that were probably more frequent than a lot of places. They don't do the local community dances like we used to have. We used to have, it seemed like, there was a community dance when I was growing up usually like once a month. That was just one of the forms of entertainment the community had so we did that. Of course it was a lot different back then because there wasn't any cell phones so it was the case of either face to face or on the phone if you were gonna ask for a date. So [laughs] I think it was a lot more, when you got turned down it was a lot harder because of the face to face. Over a text I think it would be a lot easier to accept [laughs], I don't know I don't date, you get to answer that question [laughs]. (Subjects: Culture) Right haha, exactly. But you know that's the big things we did, dating, if that's what you're trying to get at. (Subjects: Culture) ... So I guess as we kind of move towards end of this interview, I just want to ask you about a couple different big events of the decade and what you remember. So first do you remember watching the moon landing during the 60s? And how that felt?(Subjects: Science) Yes, yes I do. I remember we did watch the moon landing. And I don't recall us watching it live, I don't think they had, in '69, I don't think they had live TV in school. Because cable hadn't hit our valley so it was over the air. So I don't recall watching it live, I do remember watching it on the news and stuff. To me it was a really big deal that we had put somebody on the moon and of course my expectations from there was that we'd be continuing to go back to the moon and eventually put a base there and all of a sudden we just quit going in the 70s so. But yeah it was a big deal, I recall that, and how I felt was a really, really big deal. And we discussed it in school. (Subjects: Science ) Ok, what do you remember about 1968 with RFK getting shot and also MLK getting shot that year too? Do you remember those events pretty well? (Subjects: Politics ) I do, I remember. Once again I remember both of those events really well. RFK getting shot going through that, as I recall what sticks in my mind is the kitchen area or backroom area of the hotel and of course Martin Luther King being gunned down from a distance. I remember, I did just remember how much that affected the nation, how that was something everybody, the whole thing, and when you had two that close together, the conversations around that, what's going on in our society today, what's wrong with us. Why are we so violent? And those discussions. (Subjects: Politics ) Ok, did you watch the 1968, the DNC, the protests in Chicago? (Subjects: Politics ) I did. I watched both conventions but the Chicago one, where they showed, on TV, they actually showed the cops out there with the dogs and the batons. Yeah that was a big deal, and Mayor Daley and you know that whole thing. Once again that all revolved around that conversation I remember having in school, why are we having all this violence, riots, assassinations, Vietnam War, Vietnam War protesters that got shot on that college campus. That was all part of that discussion. (Subjects: Politics ) Did that impact the way you felt about the time? Were you scared nationally about the way the country was going, or how did you feel about the direction of the country at the time? (Subjects: Perception ) I think that looking back on it then, I don't think that that was anything that really entered my mind, just due to my age and where I was at. Because I'd have been like sixteen, seventeen years old in '68. And I guess I never, I don't recall being concerned about where the country was going, or the democracy, or anything like that. Just due to, yes I participated and everything, but the big focus in my life was I was a teenager that was, my big focus was sports, playing basketball and football. That was more, the most important thing in my life, and the national political scene was not something that was really. (Subjects: Perception ) Understandable, one final question, because we haven't talked about, well we talked a lot about your community of course, what kind of role did religion play in your life at that point? Or in your community for instance? (Subjects: Religion ) Ok, my household, the Protestant religion was very important. My mother was the Secretary Treasurer of the church and she held that from as far back as I can rememeber until well after she retired in the, well I think she held it clear into the 90s. So the local church was very prominent, that was big focus of where we spent time, as a family, with the community. The churches in the community, there were two major churches, which was ours, the Methodist Church, and the Catholics. And probably the majority of the community went to one or the other, so our community was very faith-based and there was not competition between the two, in fact, there was a lot of events that the churches held together, so it wasn't a conflict. Our religion wasn't a real strict religion it was just, kind of a, I guess back then more of a moderate-type religion. But it did play a big part in my life growing up and our family participated in the church and supported the church and like I said, my mom was a real big part of it. (Subjects: Religion ) Ok, well with that, that comes to the end of our interview so thank you for your time today and I appreciate you sitting down with me. You're welcome. Eldon Bindley is my father and I interviewed him on September 22nd. He was raised in a small ranching community in Colorado and was born in 1952. His formative school years occured during the 1960s. Major themes of the interview include politics, the Vietnam War, the Civil Rights Movement, religion, culture, and media.

Rita Birge Click to filter

So in the 1960s How old were you? What age group were you in?(Subjects: Childhood) I was born in 54 so by 1960 I was six years old. So for the whole 60s, I would have been from six to 16.(Subjects: Childhood) Do you remember a lot of what was happening around the world?(Subjects: Worldevents) What I remember the most was the Vietnam War. From being a small girl, I lived with my folks in Spokane Valley. And by the time I was 12, that was 67, we were already involved in Vietnam, and it was on the Nightly News. And the Nightly News was something that my mother and father watched every night, and so it was always on the TV during dinner time or shortly after. We watched the news, and every night, the top of the news was Vietnam. What battles have been fought, how many lives had been lost, and how many people were missing. It doesn't really touch you as closely until something happens to you. I grew up in that first house I was raised in, and there was a whole neighborhood of kids, just huge amount of kids, and we all knew each other. We all knew each other's brothers and sisters. We played at each other's houses. It was just this huge array of kids. And one of the kids families across the street from us. Their last name was Moss, M-o-s-s and they had like, six kids, and their eldest son, Larry, was in Vietnam at that time, and he was boots on the ground. In those early years, he was shot and killed. It became a whole neighborhood of closeness to Vietnam, and brought it to life for all of us, that someone in our little neck of the woods, our little neighborhood, would actually have someone who was there and died, and he received all kinds of awards posthumously, or, however you say that, and his parents went to, you know, to meet the mayor and all that kind of stuff, and got his medals and whatnot. But it was, it was a big deal in our neighborhoods. So the Vietnam War was a big deal when I was growing up.(Subjects: Vietnam, childhood) Other than just the impact in your community, were there any other instances like that where you remember a large impact made by the Vietnam War in that time period?(Subjects: Vietnam) Not necessarily about The Vietnam War, other than it was just a nightly news thing, it was just something you got accustomed to watching, as far as battles and numbers of people dead and that kind of thing. The other big event that happened when I was 10 was when John F Kennedy was shot, and I was in the fourth grade. My teacher's name was Mrs. Parrott. I remember very clearly that morning, the loudspeaker went on, and everyone was told to go home. And as kids, we didn't know what was happening. The busses came and those that walked home walked home, and we all went home, and I remember arriving home and my mom was in the middle of the living room crying, and our big old black and white TV set was in the middle of the living room, and they were doing all this business about John F Kennedy being shot and killed, so that was a big event in my life as a child,(Subjects: Vietnam, childhood, JFK assassination) You mentioned that you watched the nightly news a lot. Do you remember anything specifically about the Civil Rights Movement and all of that stuff happening?(Subjects: CRM) I remember little bits and pieces, and that it was on the news. There wasn't a lot of conversation around the kitchen table. I knew that there were black people that lived somewhere, but there were none where I lived. There were none in Spokane Valley. There were none in my schools. There were none anywhere around me, or any place that I went. The first time I even saw a black man was with my mom. I was young, and my mom had her dad with us, and we drove to downtown Spokane early in the morning for him to see somebody. And there was a black man standing on the side of the street, and I remember my sister and I staring at him wildly because we'd never seen anybody like that before, and my mom and dad never talked about it. And I know my dad didn't work with any black people. There weren't any black people around us anywhere. So what we saw in the news was something that was happening someplace else. You know, all those other places, all those other states, were so far away.(Subjects: CRM, childhood) Did you see like an uptick in the increase of the black population, kind of around Spokane after the 1960s?(Subjects: CRM, childhood) Yeah, After the 1960s after grandpa and I were married in 73, there was an influx of African Americans. There was more of an influx of Asians and at that time, there was also women that had been married to Vietnam vets, and they were coming over and they had children. Your mom: Amy, and Kenny, they had some half white, half Asian kids in their school. I don't remember if they had any black kids. But even those kids were treated poorly because they weren't white. And Kenny had a friend that lived near us when your mom and Kenny were growing up, and they weren't treated right. And so the influx happened, you know, later in our lives, as far as becoming more mixed in our area. But up until that point, up until the 70s, we were a pretty white white area for sure.(Subjects: CRM, vietnam) Help me paint a picture of what life was like. Did you ever go to the movies or watch anything other than the news on TV? Tell me about that.(Subjects: Culture) Okay, so as a kid, growing up with my little sister, we had lots of kids in the neighborhood. We walked to school. We walked a mile to school. We were outside playing all the time. We didn't watch we didn't watch cartoons or watch TV after school. We didn't have computers, we didn't have phones, we didn't have all that other stuff. So unless you had chores to do. You were outside playing. So we biked all over the place. We went over to other kids' houses. Some kids had above ground pools that we'd swim in in the summertime, or we'd play baseball out in the field. We always had something to do, and we had free rein in the neighborhood. There weren't any bad guys out there. There wasn't anybody that was going to bother the kids. All the kids had free rein in the neighborhood, and they were all over. And all you knew was, when it started to get dark, you better get home, or you're going to miss dinner. And on Saturdays, you woke up as early as you can, and you ate your cold cereal, and you hit the door, and you were outside again, and you played all day outside. When we trick or treated. When I was a little kid, my sister and I would be gone for hours. Our moms never took us trick or treating. We just took off and had to come back. Nobody was ever going to hurt you. Nobody was afraid for their kids.It was a safe environment that somebody hurting you or abducting you or anything was not even on people's minds. It just didn't happen, not in the neighborhood I grew up in. We did go to the movies. Mom had let us go to the movies., Not very often, because we didn't have a lot of money. But we did get to go to the movies. Sharon (Rita's Sister) and I belonged to a church that had a big youth group, and once a month we'd get to go roller skating clear out on the north side of Spokane. We got to go roller skating once a month. So we used to roller skate quite a bit. We had a sledding hill. We had a sledding hill not too far from where we lived. And so all the kids in the wintertime walked to sledding hill, and we'd sled all day. We just had runner sleds. Some kids had tubes, but I just had a runner sled. And we had about mile and a half, close to two miles away from our house, was a little store, and I mean a little store, but it had penny candy. Underneath the window were bins and bins and bins of penny candy. And you could go buy penny candy, and mom would give us a little bit of money. Every once while, we could all ride our bikes down to buy penny candy, and we had lemonade stands and the ice cream truck came by in the summertime, and mom would buy us ice cream from the ice cream truck. We had a good life as kids. We played a lot. We had lots of friends.(Subjects: Childhood, Culture) Do you remember what the first movie you ever went to the theater to see was?(Subjects: Childhood, culture) The one that stands out in my mind is Gone With The Wind. We didn't go to a lot of movies. We did go to some, but that one stands out in my mind.(Subjects: Childhood, culture) Was it a drive-in theater?(Subjects: Childhood, culture) It was the old Dishman theater in the valley. It was an inside theater. I have an older sister, Judy, and Judy's 11 or 12 years older than I am, and when she was dating, if my mom and dad didn't like who she was dating or was concerned about her for any reason. She could go to the movies with her boyfriend if they took Sharon and I. So Sharon and I would we were just little girls. We'd be dressed in our jammies, and we'd sit in the backseat of whoever's car when she got to go to the drive in movies. I remember doing that(Subjects: Childhood, culture) Do you remember listening to any music?(Subjects: Culture) When I was turned 12 years old, I loved Herman's Hermits. Ever heard of Herman's Hermits? I think they came out just before the Beatles. You'd have to research that. If they came out at the same time, or just a little bit before the Beatles. They were also from England, and that was one of the first albums I ever bought.(Subjects: Music) And was that like a vinyl record?(Subjects: Music) Yes. It was vinyl record. I had a phonograph, and my mom and dad had a phonograph, and they had lots of old records.That was one of the first records I ever bought. And I also loved The Monkeys, and I listened to the monkeys and I watched their TV show. I was madly in love with Davy Jones, of course.(Subjects: Music) What did your parents do for a living?(Subjects: Childhood, Backround) Okay, so my dad worked for Consolidated Freightways. It was a trucking firm in Spokane, and in his early years working for them, he drove trucks from here to Cle Elum. Cle Elum is on the way to Seattle. So he drove back and forth to Cle Elum, and then as he got older, he stopped driving, and he worked on the docks. To work on the docks meant you loaded and unloaded all the trucks. So my dad worked for them for over 30 years. I think it was 33 years i. And he worked the docks mostly, and he went to work at a very early time. He left the house somewhere between one and two o'clock in the morning. And my mom was a stay at home mom, as were all the moms I ever knew. All my friend's moms that I knew were stay at home moms. We had a couple moms in our neighborhood when I was growing up that were nurses and they worked in doctor's offices, but everybody else was a stay at home mom. So my mom had a big garden out in the back yard. My mom sewed a lot of our clothes, and she canned fruit and vegetables and all that kind of stuff in the fall. My dad hunted with his brothers. He had two brothers. So we always had deer meat. We always had birds. He hunted a lot of birds. My mom and dad fished a lot, so we had a lot of fish to eat. They were farmers. My dad grew up on a farm.(Subjects: Childhood, Backround) Do you remember where you went to Highschool University Highschool in Spokane.My brother and sister went to Central Valley High School. But as the valley grew and more people came, they had to build University High School. I graduated in 72.(Subjects: Childhood, Schooling) How would you sum up life in kind of the Spokane area in the 1960s?(Subjects: Childhood, quality of life) I look back on it as a kid, you just take it for granted. But to look back on it. I realized how safe we all were. We all came from families, moms and dads and families. We were all cared for, all the neighbor moms and dads knew who we were. It was friendly. If somebody was sick, everybody, you know, everybody bring over a pot of soup or a cake. I mean, everybody took care of one another. It was fun. I didn't worry. I wasn't scared. It was a good time. It was a good time to be a kid.(Subjects: Childhood, neighborhoods) Is there anything from the 1960s that you remember that seems oddly familiar, or you see happening again in America today?(Subjects: Politics) I think political unrest was always there, and the ebbs and flows as far as as what's happening in the world. Of course, we were in Vietnam, and so that was a war, and the political unrest because of the assassination of a president, and here we are now today, with the political unrest that we have heating up in the Middle East, with war. I suppose that that could be, you know, as close as I could come to that there. There seemed to be a calming after all of Vietnam and everybody getting back on their feet and readjusting to life as it was then and now. It seems to be bubbling up again in other ways, not only unrest here, but politically with the violence and whatnot that's going on here in our own country. It's heating up.(Subjects: Politics) Do you remember kind of what the general consensus about the the Vietnam War was? How did the people around you feel about the Vietnam War?(Subjects: Vietnam) My father was a World War Two vet, and most of the people that he knew were World War Two vets, I think they probably felt whether it was necessary or not. I think the consensus was, "let's just get the job done." And I think for the most part, people felt that we weren't being aggressive enough to get the job done, that it went on for much too long, that it we just didn't go in and get the job done quick enough that we needed to be more forceful or do whatever we had to do to get the job done. And the fact that we just walked away after all that time and all those people that died, we walked away, and I think that left, that left a scar on a lot of people at that time. Going to war was one thing, but to let it go on for as long as it did, and then walk away was something else. Where they came from a generation that you just went in and you got it done, and it was your duty, and that's what you did as Americans. You went in and you got it done and you came home. And that's not exactly what happened. So I think there was some frustration with that(Subjects: Vietnam) The Vietnam War is heavily characterized with the amount of war journalists that got sent over there, and people were seeing the war themselves on television. Do you personally remember seeing anything on TV or on the news about the Vietnam War that stuck with you?(Subjects: Vietnam) They didn't show a lot of, you know, fields full of dead bodies or or things like that. What I do remember seeing toward the end, where they would show the screaming and crying of the women and the children and that kind of stuff, and that was always hard to see, but they didn't do that till toward the end. So no, nothing, no picture rings out in my head about it just, it was just a generalized, yeah, they were pretty they were very cautious on TV back then, black and white TV and all back then of showing anything bloody or too graphic. So it was generalized pictures. But toward the end, they showed more. They were a little bit more graphic, and that was hard to take.(Subjects: Vietnam) And you were also alive at the height of the Cold War. Does anything stick out? Or do you remember what life was like? Like living under potential nuclear threat from the east.(Subjects: ColdWar) In the 50s and early 60s, we were kids. People make fun of it now because they show them on TV and it's more of a joke where we had to hide under our desks. So we had bomb drills in school. It was just like you had fire drills, and we had bomb drills. And so when the drill alarm would go off, kids were told to crawl under their desks, or crawl under the teacher's desks, or some could get into the closet if there wasn't enough room. But that was the kind of cover we took for a nuclear war. It was to crawl under our desk. It seemed like the right thing to do, you know, now it's hilarious to think that crawling under a desk is going to do anything for you.(Subjects: ColdWar) And do you ever remember anyone around you, perhaps your parents or a teacher or some other adult in your life talk about the communists, or share any kind of concern over the Cold War?(Subjects: ColdWar) Not at my house, not at my house. I don't remember any like that. The only other thing I remember, as far as bomb threats was that most most people had basements. We had a basement, and the basement was stocked with canned goods, food, blankets, and shelter. So if anything was to happen, we were to run to the basement. But I don't ever remember my parents talking about it.(Subjects: ColdWar) Did you ever feel any kind of anxiety from the Cold War, or was it just not on your radar(Subjects: ColdWar) Yeah, as a child, it just wasn't on my radar. But as a kid, I didn't think anything else about it. The rest of my life was great. We had air raid siren right at right across the street from my house, went off every Wednesday at noon. Wow. That was justt commonplace. It's what we grew up with. I suppose maybe if my parents had talked about it more, or talked anxiously about it, or anything like that at the kitchen table, maybe Sharon and I would have been more afraid or or thought more about it, but my parents never talked about it in front of us. I'm sure it was something that they talked about or, that they thought about, but nothing that they ever shared with us showed that they were afraid.(Subjects: ColdWar) Do you have any memories of the feminist movement or it affecting gender roles at all?(Subjects: Feminism) I was probably too young for that. But the only thing I do remember, as far as feminism or anything like that was Roe v. Wade My mother, for whatever reason, was a proponent of Roe v. Wade, and went to Ladies groups and had meetings and all that kind of stuff. I don't know where she took it from there, other than if there was a vote of some sort. But anyway, she was a proponent of that, and I just remember her voicing her opinion to us.(Subjects: Roev.Wade) You've been extremely helpful to me. I think this interview has gone very well. You've given me a lot to work with. Thank you so much for your time!(Subjects: Conclusion)

Tony Cole Click to filter

This is Matteo Milani interviewing my grandpa, Tony Cole from Santa Rosa, California. How would you describe daily life in the 60's? How do you think it is different from today? How is it the same? (Subjects: Culture) Well, I was a teenager in the early 60's. I didn't care about politics. Vietnam was going on, I lost a lot of friends. I've alwasy been behind the government, even today, but over the years i've come to the conclusion that we lost a lot of boys for nothing. So, I was wrong back then, but you know, what i'm gonna call the "hippies," I was not one of them. I hold them to it for being against the government. (Subjects: Vietnam, politics) Would you say the politics were similar to how the left and right are today?(Subjects: Politics) Yeah, uh, they're lazy (chuckle) the Hate Ashbury scene, I was not into. They marched against the governement, and they had that free-spirit attitude with no rules. So I hold that to the young people of today. They're not working, they're against the government for no reason. Well, not searching out their reasoning, they're just going with the party atmosphere like in the 60's. Vietnam was a very big mistake. We have that going on now, but like I said, I'm pro government, I'm pro laws, and the hippies were on the other side of that fence. (Subjects: Politics, Vietnam) Yeah, their movement wasn't too happy with the government (chuckle) We all did the partying, drugs, the 50's started the 60's. (Subjects: Culture) How so? Meaning the music, the attitude, the freedom, the cars going up and down the streets touring. And then my generation, about 5-6 years younger, we went into the 60's and continued that. The drugs were free, the partying was free. A big mistake (chuckle) A lot of years wasted.(Subjects: Culture) Would you look back on it as a good time, or would you have liked to have done things differently? A good time in the partying, but not a good time in wasting years. You know, i'm a firm believer that drugs stop your growth. So it took me a lot of years to figure that out. So, again, I lost a lot of years that I could have been productive, and be in better shape than i'm in now, meaning financially, matterial things.(Subjects: Culture) So what was your favorite kind of music to listen to back then? And did you feel like it had an influence on you?(Subjects: Culture) Well I met your grandmother at the Doors dance, or concert. The music carried over from the 50's and got more radical in the 60's. The 50's with Elvis, and Big Bopper, and Fats Domino. That kinda rubbed the adults wrong, and the 60's got to the Doors, the words, the lyrics, the music tempo, concerts. That didn't happen back in the 50's and 40's. We ran with that, The Philmore, in San Franscisco, there was no rules (chuckle) You just partied your heart out, and hoped you got home (chuckle)(Subjects: Culture) Seems like it all worked out (chuckle) Well, yes and no. Like I said, at this phase of my life, I do not believe in the freedom of drugs. I watched my friends, and I watched my life, i've come to that conclusion(Subjects: Culture) Ok, so it sounds like the music did have a pretty big impact. Yes, yes it was the music and the drugs and everybody was on the same page with the lyrics. It was not Frank Sinatra (chuckle) it was loud and about freedom. Woodstock, I never made it to Woodstock, but Woodstock tells the whole picture of the 60's and early 70's. (Subjects: Culture) Was that something you would have liked to have gone to? Yes (chuckle) but I did not have a vehicle that would have made it Oh dang (chuckle) But we did Altamont, and the Philmore, and others like those concerts that were local. I don't know if you know anything about the Philmore, but they had, you know, Janis Joplin, Big Brother and the Holding Company, Jimi Hendrix, those musicians. (Subjects: Culture) Oh that's awesome. Yes, yes, I don't regret being young in the 60's, but I did waste a lot of time. People tell me all the time, you're lucky you were a teenager, and early twenties, in the 60's. Yes, but I think things could have been different. The drugs made a big difference. You know, my folks and the adults at that time, you take a puff of marijuana and you're hooked for life. Well that proved to be wrong, so the next step, and the next step, and the next, and that led to partying. (Subjects: Culture) Ok, so similar to music, how do you remember televison? Has it changed a lot?(Subjects: Media) In the 60's I was never around the home much, I remember Leave It to Beaver (chuckle), the American all around family programming. And then Saturday Night Live started, and that broke the all American home life. So Saturday Night Live was in sync with the times. They broke the barriers of talking about different subjects, and putting the government down, and the humor all went with the times. (Subjects: Media, Culture) Was it cool to watch that unfold? Well, I don't remember it as unfolding. At my age now, I can remember it unfolding, but at the time that was just life. You didn't have to worry about tomorrow and consequences. It was just a good time everyday. (Subjects: Culture) Yeah that's kind of the interesting part about looking back, you don't really realize the effect while it's happening. Yeah, I lost a lot of friends, not overdose, but medical. The drugs, like liver diseases, car wrecks, and motorcycle wrecks. So it was a good time, and a bad time, if that makes sense. (Subjects: Culture) Yeah, yeah, I get you. Well, i'm sorry to hear that. Then the Vietnam War was going on all this time. So I guess it holds true today. You have two sides to a coin. You have the hippies with their peace sign marching against the government, I was on the other side. The government was right, the government was your shepard, and so we clashed with the hippies. But then there were the concerts, you know, we were all together, but seperate. (Subjects: Vietnam, Politics) So you liked the same music, but not the same politics. Yup, exactly, and it showed. Like I said, I met your grandmother at the Doors dance, and that's pretty radical music. But yeah, that was the 60's and early 70's. You listen to the words of the doors and its pretty radical. But at that time it was good music. Big Brother and the Holding Company, Janis Joplin, and I pretty much did not listen to the music, as much as I did the tempo, and the atmosphere around it. Now I look back onto the words and (chuckle) i'm at awe with the lyrics. (Subjects: Culture) Ok, so let's move on the Civil Rights Movement. Do you remember it happening? Like did it have a big impact on your daily life? Or did you not really notice it as much?(Subjects: CRM) No, no that was never... I watched the news, and we talked about it, you know, Martin Luther King, but no. I had very good friends that were black, but uh no, I mean my door was never closed.(Subjects: CRM, media ) Ok then we can move on to my last question. You already kinda answered this, but concerning the Vietnam War, how did you feel that it affected your community? (Subjects: Vietnam) It was divided. They came home... well I had a lot of friends and we used to go the Italian deli and buy a care package of meats and cheeses and breads and ship it over to my friends. I wrote letters to them, and I was backing what they were there for. Well when they got home, I was kind of laughed at. I was way off base from what they were feeling. They were there, and I was here, driving up and down the streets and partying. They were being shot at away from home and away from friends, and I didn't understand that at the time. Like I said, I wrote letters to them, and I was backing them. And when they came home they laid into me. You know, "what are you writing," and "it was bad over there." It wasn't a good war. Should've never been started in the first place. And then when they came home, they were spit on, and they were called baby-killers, and that's not true. (Subjects: Vietnam) Yeah that's tough. Colateral damage, naturally the civilians and children and so forth in the way. But you know eighteen years old, nineteen years old, I was still in Santa Rosa partying, going to the Philmore, dating and all that kinda stuff, and they were there. Seeing the ugly part of war, and when they came home, they were not treated like war veterans today. And I think that people learned off of that. You know, service members come home from Iraq and Afghanistan and they're treated really well. But the hippies and the far left liberals, boy they hammered them. And that was confusing, mental issues, I have a couple of friends who never came home mentally. And they should've been greeted with open arms. It was not a war that should have been fought. Then it was a political war, my father, lifer in the marine core, served three duties over there as a gunny. And it was a politcal war, meaning politicians who are ran by the mothers of the soldiers, ran that war.(Subjects: Vietnam, Politics) My dad would take a position, and then the next day give it up. And then a week later take that position back. The military did not run the war. The politics did. And the politics are ran by mothers, and families. So that's my take of why we lost so many young people. Your grandmother lost her childhood friend, I lost three or four friends, and a couple of them mentaly never came home. Your great grandpa, my dad, fought World War 2, Korea, and three duties in Vietnam. When he was home he used to stay with me and your grandma, and he used to say that it was goofy. It was not fought like World War 2 or Korea, it was civillians fighting the military, and military killing civillians, and poisoning their crops, and so forth. Your great grandpa was down on the military part of it. He was proud of World War 2 and Korea, because those were issues that needed to be resolved. Vietnam was not an issue to be solved. It was political. And today we didn't accomplish anything. Vietnam is still communist. Forty or I guess fifty thousand young men died for no reason. Not counting the people who came home mental, and without limbs. For no reason. (Subjects: Vietnam, Politics) Yeah it's a real rough point in American history. But back in the 60's I was all for it. The government was gonna kill all the comunists and gonna save America. It wasn't until years later that I realized, and did a little reading, and realized it was not a war that had an end. (Subjects: Vietnam) Yeah, yeah that's really tough. Yeah, like I said , I got hell from my friends that came home. I was promoting the war (chuckle) you know go get em guys, and they were going "oh boy, you are off base."(Subjects: Vietnam) Well thank you so much for sharing that information with me. I know it can be tough to talk about. I hope I didn't confuse you to my thoughts (chuckle) Oh no, no. You had brought up the memories, and it's been a long time since I thought of the friends that I had lost. War is no good, But it has to be fought for a reason. (Subjects: Vietnam) Yeah at the very least. Yeah, my dad, your great-grandpa hated politicians. As a gunny, lost a lot of men for the politicians. Politicians need to stay out of the military. The military is trained to know whats best, but the politicians get involved. And they make rank that they never should have made. My dad hated what he called the "Minutemen" coming out of college and fighting the battle while turning the page. "Oh, chapter one, how do we fight this?" No experience in the field, and got a lot of people killed. Anyway...(Subjects: Vietnam, Politics) Well, I really appreciate you taking the time to answer some questions for me. Like I said, I hope I answered your questions, and not strung you out wondering what I was saying (chuckle) No, no I thought you did a great job. I like hearing old stories. Yeah, the 60's were crazy times. That's what I hear. It was the start of everything. Before the 50's people did not speak out, kind of like sheep. The 50's broke it and the 60's ran with it. People nowadays speak out on everything. (chuckle)(Subjects: Culture)

Louise Davison Click to filter

This is Lucinda Meshberg and I'm here with Louise Davison doing an oral history recording for the long 1960s class. Just to start, for some background information, how old were you in the 1960s? How old were you in 1960? 1960. I would have been 17. Okay. So, where did you grow up?(Subjects: childhood) Outside of Philadelphia in a small town called Paoli, Pennsylvania. Population, probably 2000. But we were about 20 miles from Philadelphia. So It was a small town, but it was close by city sophistication.(Subjects: childhood) What do you remember about getting your education there and growing up?(Subjects: education) Public education, good. The high school I went to was Conestoga High School in Berwin, Pennsylvania, still considered to be a very good school. We competed in that area with a lot of private schools, but our production, the school's production, was very high level. I was an academic track, because they used to track back then, and intended to go to college and did.(Subjects: education) Where did you go to college?(Subjects: education) That's a long one. I started off at a small girls' school, called Cedarcrest College in Allentown. Pennsylvania and went there for two years. Then I transferred to the Pennsylvania Academy of the Fine Arts in Philadelphia and went there for two years, and then I got married, and then I moved to North Carolina, and my husband was working on his PhD, and I finished my degree, my undergraduate degree in art history, at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill.(Subjects: education) Was music and television and important part of your life during the 60s?(Subjects: media) Not really. No.(Subjects: media) Okay. My next question. What kind of effect did the Vietnam War have on your community?(Subjects: vietnam) And this is another very interesting thing. I can't speak for my community. We were in Graduate school, Pete was in graduate school starting in 1966.(Subjects: vietnam, education) And Pete is your husband?(Subjects: family) He was my husband. Right. And I say that I don't know how it affected my community because I was in a student community. We were aware of the students who did not get deferments. We were aware of one who died in Vietnam. My husband happened to have been 4F, and actually, in 1968, in the heat of everything, he had open heart surgery, and so it did not affect us the same way it affected everybody else. I remember enormous conflict about it, but because we were both in school and because he was not involved, it didn't have the same impact.(Subjects: vietnam, education) How did it feel to watch the Civil Rights Movement unfold throughout the 60s? Or what memories do you have about it as a movement?(Subjects: crm, perception) One probably would be later, which was a friend of my parents was involved in Fair Housing, and so I was aware of that. I don't know and I'm not sure whether that would be in the 60s or not. I was in North Carolina when Martin Luther King was killed. I remember participating in some, I don't know that they were rallies so much as commemorations. This was a southern school, but in a very, you know, a very black and white State. And the thing is, there was definitely an outpouring. I've always watched the news, I have not been impacted terribly by, you know, commercial television so much and I remember being aware, but I was not active.(Subjects: crm, assasination, media) Okay, so when do you remember starting to watch the news?(Subjects: media) Well, I watched the news you know, the early news when there were only three stations. And I watched, I'm pretty sure it was NBC. I remember vividly Walter Cronkite. I remember the beginning of McNeil Lehrer on PBS and I to this day watch that on a daily basis. It is my only source of news with the exception of the newspapers online, the Washington Post, and the New York Times. And I don't listen to radio. And I never did listen to radio which makes me an outlier in my own generation.(Subjects: media) So did your family own a television when we were young?(Subjects: media, childhood) After I was 12(Subjects: childhood) After you were 12. Okay.(Subjects: media, childhood) We used to go up the street on Thursday nights and watch The Lone Ranger at a neighbor's. They had one earlier.(Subjects: media, childhood) What do you remember about dating and when did you start dating?(Subjects: gender) I don't - I was five feet eight when I was 12 years old, and I was, I have been cross-eyed my whole life. And my dating situation was different from the popular girls. I'll put it that way. I think I had a boyfriend, sort of in like the 10th or 11th grade, nothing very serious. I started to date, actually, a man who had graduated from college at the end of my senior year. And then I met my future husband in the very beginning of my freshman year and we dated off and on for four years before we were married.(Subjects: gender) What are your memories of the feminist movement and how it affected gender roles throughout the 60s?(Subjects: gender) That's really a hard one because I was aware of and sort of didn't like Betty Friedan. I have a different attitude I think than a lot of women. I had three brothers and I grew up in an all-male neighborhood. Literally didn't have- I had girlfriends at school, but there was nobody who lived around me. Which meant that I assumed that I needed to take care of myself. So it didn't occur to me that I couldn't do anything that a man could do. And I was not particularly persuaded by the fact that I needed to somehow be different or feel differently than I did just sort of natively. I then, when I got into, much later, I am extremely aware of this disparity in earning power for women. And I know that in my early marriage, I would, I was divorced in 1978, and at that time in the state of California, I was warned to get a credit card before I divorced because I would not have one If I didn't already have it. I had - my father could sign on my bank account when I was a teenager, I could not do that by myself. So I was aware of all these things, but they were not enormous obstacles. It became, I think feminism became Pretty serious after my divorce and trying to get jobs and even an educated woman and being paid less. It was, you know, that matters. But I was never an active feminist, and I still feel I feel the way I have always felt which is I think I was one of the boys in a good way.(Subjects: gender) So tell me about your siblings and growing up with you said, three brothers, yes?(Subjects: childhood) It was in the days when we were very free. We played, I mean, aside from school, we played in the summertime from breakfast until we were called at dinner, and our parents had no idea where we were. The thing is we lived in a small town, everybody knew everybody. My father was a small-town physician, so we definitely were, you know, known, and it was a lot of imagination. Tree houses, playing in the woods, and riding bikes, and it was quite wonderful. And actually I moved to Moscow Idaho after my divorce, with two children, a two-year-old and a six-year-old so that I could try and achieve in Moscow, Idaho, the freedom that I had had as a child and I think my kids, my brothers would say this, that we had the last, you know, fabulous childhood and I think my children feel that way about their childhood in Moscow.(Subjects: childhood) When did you move to Moscow? 78' 78'? Okay. Thought I'd be here for a year. Can I go back to the dating question?(Subjects: gender) Oh yeah. Absolutely.(Subjects: gender) Because the one thing that I wanted to tell you is one of the things that is very much in the news right now. Abortion was not legal, and it had a huge impact at least on me regarding my sex life. I was terrified of getting pregnant before I was married. And the thing is, it didn't cause me to change anything, but it was very definitely a deterrent at least in my community and I think I was not probably alone. Did sex occur? Of course, but not like it certainly has been able to be since the birth control pill.(Subjects: gender) So you did not have access to birth control?(Subjects: gender) No, no, not until I was married. And it was very, very early. I mean, as a matter of fact, the pill that I, you know, the pill in the early days was 10 times maybe a hundred times more powerful than it is and it ultimately was so powerful that it altered my reproductive system, to the point where I couldn't have children for almost eight years.(Subjects: gender) Oh wow.(Subjects: gender) Until my hormones, you know, got under control. So now it's a fraction of what it used to be. The chemicals are a fraction of what they used to be.(Subjects: gender) Growing up, what sort of games that your brothers and you play?(Subjects: childhood) A lot of sports. Baseball, some football. My problem was that I have no depth perception because I only have the side of the one eye, so I was always lousy at it and the last one called. We did a lot of running. Had there been track for women back then, I probably would have done track. The only sports that were acceptable for women in those days was tennis, field hockey, and if you could stand it, half-court basketball. No women ever ran track back then, and the idea of what's happening now with women's basketball was absolutely unimaginable.(Subjects: childhood) Speaking of school, what subjects did you do in elementary school and high school, and what was your favorite?(Subjects: education) Always art. We were taught to read in reading circles out loud, and I was very embarrassed to make mistakes, so I did not like that. I did read a lot when I was a kid. You know, privately. My fifth-grade teacher, I don't remember subjects, and in elementary, my fifth-grade teacher was a returned Korean War veteran who had lost an arm. A man. And he was an outstanding teacher, and I remember that year being really exciting. He just was a great guy. Junior High. I loved again, art. I always veered toward English and the social sciences before the hard Sciences. High school, I took German and four years of Latin, loved that, took Latin again in college, and the very best course I had in high school was what we called Civics at that point. And it was taught by a man who was way ahead of the game. I graduated in 1961 from high school, and this man was already putting the Vietnam situation on the radar which was way early, and also making the importance of Civic involvement and voting important to us as high school students, and it was it was a great course.(Subjects: education) What kind of books did you read? You said you enjoyed reading.(Subjects: education, media) Nancy Drew. Oh dear, I don't even remember. The classics. You know, children's literature, young adult literature was not yet the big deal that it is now, so mostly the classics. Heidi, but I don't know.(Subjects: media) The Classics? What genre did you find yourself drawn to more?(Subjects: media) In books?(Subjects: media) Yes.(Subjects: media) Well, it was all fiction. I mean, I don't remember getting, you know, non-fiction serious until I was an adult. I will tell you that I did take saxophone in elementary school, and I was in saxophone in the band for two years, but by the time I got to the junior high school, and it was junior high school, not middle school. So seventh through eighth, seven, eight, nine, it was not seemly for a girl to play saxophone so that was the end of that music career. And when I did listen to music my father had loved classical and also jazz. And so those those were the things that I would I was sort of raised in the sound around.(Subjects: media, gender) Was being seen as- because you said you quit saxophone because you wanted - it wasn't... What was the word you used? Seemly?(Subjects: gender) It was definitely a man's instrument.(Subjects: gender) Was that important to you, being seen being seen as feminine?(Subjects: gender) No, I don't think that I saw it that way. I think I just accepted the fact that it is what it is and there may have been other interests at that point I don't remember.(Subjects: media, gender) You mentioned you learned German and Latin in school. Did you ever travel to Germany or meet any German-speaking people to practice your language?(Subjects: education, politics) No, I wanted to be an AFS student and go abroad, but - and I don't know what the situation is now - but it was at that time, very expensive and my family could not afford it. So I was not able to do that. I did make up for it however, because I have lived for a year in Norway, I have lived for a year in Spain, and I lived for two years, in Ukraine in the Peace Corps about 15 years ago and traveled a lot.(Subjects: education, politics) Were you always interested in Going to other countries and learning about other countries?(Subjects: education) Oh, yeah. I mean, yeah absolutely. You know, when you grow up in a really small place, but the influence of the city was close enough. My family were Presbyterians, and we had wonderful programs in that church, in the little local church, with Lincoln University, which was an all-black University in Chester County. And so, we had these wonderful exchanges with people. We did have exchange students at that time who came to Paoli so I had Connections, but I think if you grow up in one place, you want to get out. And indeed, I wanted to get out at 18 and never went back.(Subjects: education, religion) Was religion an important part of your life growing up?(Subjects: religion) It was when I was young. It was very important to me which may have also been one of the reasons that I was kind of not one of the typical teenagers at that time during junior high and high school. I actually was, at one point in my senior year of high school, preached at the Riverside Presbyterian Church in New York City, and then in the summer of my senior year and between senior year and freshman year of college, two close people died. The father of a friend, and an uncle of mine, and sitting in the services, I came to the conclusion that death was final and that was the end of it and I've never looked back.(Subjects: religion) You mentioned it wasn't common for people your age to be very involved in the church or religious.(Subjects: religion) I think it was a super involvement. I would have to say. It just was a big part of my life. It was a big part of my identity I would say from 12 to 18. I always sang in the choir, I participated in various youth events. Anyway, but as I say, then all of a sudden one day, it was over and I don't know what my teenage years might have been like if I had not had that.(Subjects: religion) Music seems like it was an important part of your life because you play saxophone and you mentioned singing in the choir.(Subjects: childhood, media, religion) Well singing was belonging. And the thing is, so I sang all the way through high school. I sang in college at the first school I went to. When I moved to Moscow, I've been in a couple of musicals which was sort of fun. I was not the lead, but I was in choruses and so forth. And that's a big, that's a huge kick. When I came to Moscow, Idaho, I joined the university corral. Not the big fancy one, but the amateur one if you will, and sang for several years with that. And I don't know whether this matters to you, but I have five children and three of them are artists. Two of them are major musicians. One of them is a professional. So I got to listen to music being practiced every day, all day. Not all day. And, as a matter of fact, one of my kids is playing in Carnegie Hall on the 1st of November with the 30th Anniversary of the band Pink Martini, so it's a big part of my life.(Subjects: media) This may not be definitively within the 60s, but when did you have your children?(Subjects: gender, family) My first child was adopted from when we were living in Norway. We adopted my daughter from Korea in 1971. And as I say, I could not get pregnant for a while, so I did not get pregnant until four years later and ended up having my first son, who will be 50 in December. And then after my divorce, I remarried when I came to Moscow and I acquired a stepson, and then, a year later produced a set of twins.(Subjects: gender, family) So you raised them to be very artistic.(Subjects: family) Yeah. Yeah, it was pretty important for us. I mean, as I say, trying to kind of recover that really free childhood that I'd had. And they could do that here. And the benefit, of course, being that there are two universities here and they could take advantage of things like the, Lionel, Hampton Jazz Festival. When the twins were toddlers, they could stand as far away from Ray Brown as you and I are. And the thing is, uh, this was a wonderful area creatively, artistically, and musically. They are exceptional.(Subjects: family) You mentioned in school, your favorite subject was always art. What medium was your favorite?(Subjects: education) Well, when I studied at the Academy of Fine Arts, it was painting, although I would have if I had stayed there, I would have gone into printmaking. And after the kids were out of high school, I began to do art again and I have been pushing the medium of fabric behind glass paintings. I can show you some of those if you like, but at any rate, I I love, I love working with fabric. I thought I was going to be a quilter, and I made one quilt, and that was the end of that. But I got into fabric as a medium and I'm still doing that.(Subjects: education) Do you think it was in school that this creativity was sparked?(Subjects: education) I think I inherited it. My father should have, rather than being a doctor, should have been a medical illustrator because he was a very, very fine drawer. My mother was also quite artistic, so I think I came by one or two genes, but I was always good at it, and I loved it, and so it was easy for me. I also am a real fan of serious, I mean, the arts are serious stuff. Children who are educated with the arts are, usually have a leg up both from the standpoint of what it does for their brains and their openness to things and how they see and interpret, but also just pure pleasure.(Subjects: education, family) Before we're done, is there anything that you wanted to bring up that's really important that you say about your life? I've gotten through all my questions.(Subjects: perception) I just feel like a very lucky woman.(Subjects: perception) Is that because of the time that you grew up in?(Subjects: perception) It's a combination of things. I have the feeling that I would have lived through some of the best years on the planet. I mean, I've gone from, I was born in the middle of World War II And went through, all those 50s that we've been talking about as a child, but as a young, you know, teenager, older teenager, I've been very fortunate with wonderful family and friends, and I feel as if, the medical advances have been an advantage to me. I think that I'm worried about where technology is taking us in terms of the distraction for children. I'm glad I'm not raising my kids right now. They all work in the industries and of course use technology all the time. But I feel I can't say that certain things that have happened to me have not had, you know, purpose, but I feel, I just feel lucky.(Subjects: perception) Thank you.(Subjects: perception)

Ty DeVault Click to filter

This is James DeVault. I'm here with Ty DeVault, who grew up in the 60s. Do you want to tell me a little bit about where you're from? I was born in Casper, Wyoming. My parents, my dad was born there. My mother moved there when she was in junior high. So my grandfather homesteaded outside of Casper, Wyoming in the 1920s. 1920s when he moved there. I grew up in town a little bit on a ranch in the summer times, up in Northwest Wyoming. I went to school there, all 12 years and kindergarten, too. Went to the community college there in Casper and then went to the University of Wyoming. Okay, and you were born in 1962 Today? 6 years ago. Today's my birthday. All right. We'll start off with what kind of shows or movies did you watch?(Subjects: culture) Anything we could get on the TV. We watched Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom, Wonderful World of Disney. We had to watch the news with Dad. Let's see. Some of those sitcoms back then. Dick Van Dyke and Bewitched. We didn't watch much because, well, one, we couldn't. And two, we had too many other things to do. We did used to go to the movies. Me and my friends, we'd go, it was 25 or 50 cents. We'd scrape together and go down to the theater and watch the popular kid shows of the day. I can't remember what they were. Cartoons mostly.(Subjects: culture:TV) You mentioned the news. Do you remember anything specific about the news when you were a kid? The Vietnam War, of course, was on the news every night. There was footage from that. That was pretty publicized war. Then there was about the same as today. A lot of people blaming somebody else for whatever their problem was. I think it must sell the news and the doom and gloom. You didn't see too much positive news. I think you saw a little bit more than you do today, positive news, where somebody did something good. Then we'd watch the national news and then we'd watch the local news. You got some more variety there. They would have the news for 15 minutes. Then they would have the weather for 10, and then they would have sports for five. Pretty much the same as it is today, I would guess.(Subjects: news) Okay, with Vietnam, how did you or your parents or your community see it? What was their perspectives?(Subjects: vietnam, parents) Vietnam, the war? My family, my dad and my grandpa, they missed out on the wars. They were either too old or too young to this war or that war. I did have some uncles. I had one that was in World War II and in Korea. Then I had an uncle that was in Vietnam. Of course, you know, we were a conservative town. We supported our troops. I had a neighbor across the street who was in Vietnam for three tours. He got captured and escaped from the Vietnamese. His dad was in World War II. He captured and escaped twice from the Germans. So, you can imagine when you hear stories, you grow up hearing stories like that. I get to talk to these fellas, you know, on the front porch. You begin to empathize with them and their plight and the sacrifice that they did make. Even as a young boy, I could understand that. They were over there fighting for somebody else, and I'm one of them.(Subjects: vietnam) Okay, interesting. We're gonna go sort of back to family. Were any of you religious or did you attend church? Yes, my dad wasn't, my mom was. We went to the Lutheran church there. We didn't attend all that regularly. Then we moved out of town, you know, a couple miles. Dad bought two acres. We built a house out there, he was a contractor. We built a house outside of town, and we were like a mile and a half from a church, and my mom started going there. It was a less liturgical church. It wasn't a charismatic church, but there were some really honest people there that took their faith to the next level. You might say they loved on their neighbor, like "I love your neighbor as yourself" kind of thing. My mom took a shine to that. So we started going every Sunday to the chagrin of my dad. I think he felt kind of left out. We went every Sunday, Wednesday night, Sunday night, Sunday morning, and potlucks and all that, you know. Out to the lake, up on the mountain. We were involved into that church. Dad wasn't. He fought it for 20 years, and then he finally gave in and accepted the faith.(Subjects: family, religion) You mentioned your dad was a contractor. Can you go into a little more about what your parents did for a living? Well, he was a plumber, and he worked back then. You had to work as an apprentice, and then you became a journeyman. After 10 years of, I think it was four years apprentice, six years journeyman, you could apply for your master's license, where you could own your own business. And he did that, and he started his own business. Mom was a stay at home mom. She raised us until we were out and all the kids were in high school. Then she worked in the school system as an aide. But dad provided most of the money. Mom provided the insurance through that job. Of course, he hired me, I learned how to be a plumber. My older brother, he still owns the business, and he's retiring out of it. But that was the family business. Everybody just kind of flocked around that. You know, answering phones, and going on calls, and stuff like that. That's how we made our living, that's how we ate. He started the business in Casper I think in 1973. And at that time, there were a bunch of oil companies that were drilling wells. I mean, there was over a thousand wells going at any one time in Wyoming for about, I would say, six to seven years. So the housing market just exploded. Casper doubled in that six and seven years. And that's what he did. We plumbed a lot of houses, and made a lot of money doing that. I didn't say he didn't get rich, but he fed his family in about a house, that kind of thing. (Subjects: parents, jobs) So how did town change over that time? Well, it expanded, I hunted a lot, and where I would go hunting, they would throw up a housing development. So then I would have to go further out of town, you know, and find more deer and animals, rabbits, or whatever it was, that changed, that impacted me. Going out to the fishing holes, we grew up on the North Platte River, and there was some reservoirs and fishing holes got more crowded, we just had to get more creative on where we went and stuff like that. That's how it affected me. And of course, you know, you had that food on the table because of it, but that was always a drawback.(Subjects: culture) What was watching the civil rights movement unfold like? Did that affect you at all?(Subjects: crm, movements) In Casper, Wyoming, there wasn't much of a civil rights movement. They're just, and I'm not saying that because it wasn't, you know, there was people of color there and other races and that wasn't it. It was everybody was just too busy working. So nobody had time to play the victim or to play the victor or whatever it was. I just remember the grown-ups shaking their heads and saying, "What are they doing out there? You know, what are they doing in the cities? What are they doing wherever it was?" And it was hard to get accurate, what was true and what was accurate. You know, they're not necessarily the same thing, true and accurate. So we were kind of shielded from it because it didn't happen in our own front yard or on our streets. We'd see it in the news and people would shake their heads and couldn't understand much of it. And or make heads or tails of who's telling the truth. There were several views out there. Now, the civil rights movement, everybody said it was about time that, you know, stop the segregation and that. I remember everybody talking about that and they were glad to see that coming. But then the movement, the policies that changed or the laws that changed were good, but the movement itself was destructive. People were hurting themselves by doing those things. I lived in South Africa in the late 80s and early 90s at the same time that they went through their democracy change. And so I got to draw the parallels and, of course, there were older folks there that I worked for that would, that from America, that would say, "Yeah, this is the same thing that's going on, you know, here and going on there back in the 60s and 70s." And it was the same problem. There were people there, you know, that were fighting for true democracy, but then there were some there just fighting to cause problems and they were power hungry and they wanted fame and they wanted something when it was over. They weren't in it for the, not all of them were in it for the democracy. They were in it for own personal gain. And I think that's true in our world and just about everywhere.(Subjects: crm, movements) Do you remember anything about, you're a little young for Kennedy, but you remember anything about Martin Luther King, Jr.'s or Robert Kennedy's assassinations? No, I remember when it, you know, I remember people talking. Yeah, Kennedy, I was a year old when he was assassinated. I know people talked about him, even, you know, years old, too bad, Kennedy got assassinated, you know, because he would have made a good, and that would, he would have made a good president or he did make a good president. That was even in the conservative field. If Kennedy was alive today, I think he would be a Republican because his views, you know, he would tell people to hold themselves up and get themselves going. But he was a champion for the civil rights. And I remember people who were staunch conservatives singing his praises because he was, he was one president that was, as I understand it, and as history pointed out, he was fighting for those rights and trying to get all men created equal, but he was also telling people to help themselves and stop hurting themselves. I don't remember Bobby getting shot. I do remember people talking about it, and you know, what a tragedy. They had empathy for the Kennedys. They, the poor parents lost two kids. I mean, that was terrible.(Subjects: politics, assassination) What was the Cold War like in Casper? It was, I think the same as everywhere because it was cold and there wasn't any flare-ups. So I think everybody had the same experience with that. You know, Russians this and Russians that. And I remember going over the hydrogen bomb in science class and how many people was going to kill. One teacher told us that if they nuked Denver that it would wipe out Casper, which wasn't true. I mean, a thermonuclear bomb is pretty big, but it's not that big. And of course, everybody's town was a target. Ours was a target because we had three refineries. It was a crossroads, blah, blah, blah. Well, you lived in fear the entire time. Running fear is popular with teachers. I know I was a teacher too, but it creates discussion in the class and you like to get that going. And there was a lot of that that was passed on, but some of it was true. I mean, all it took was somebody to do something stupid and we'd be at war. Of course, nobody wants that because once that button is pushed, everybody's dead. So what's the point? I don't know. The Cold War. And people were dying. I remember that. There would be these little flare-ups like in Panama or in, well, in Yuba. I don't remember that battle, but it was one of them. And little ones in Africa that you would hear about. And it was a result of the Cold War. So people were dying, but there was no battle to fight. And then, of course, who knows where everybody was dying at. You didn't hear about them because it was all covert.(Subjects: coldwar) Did you have to do duck and cover drills in school? Yes, we did. In grade school, we did.(Subjects: coldwar) What was watching the space race like? Oh, that was cool. That was fun. We got to watch TV in our classroom, I think, twice or three times if a launch or a landing took place during school hours. Plus, there was only one TV in the whole school. So your teacher had to be the one to go down and request it and make sure she reserved it for that. But I remember watching Apollo 13 come. You know, that was the one that almost died. They had some problems, but they made it back to Earth. We got to watch them enter the atmosphere and the parachutes open. We did watch, we watched most of them at home because it happened at that time. And I don't think the school had a TV, so during Apollo 11 or anything, there just wasn't a TV available. But we were always cheering them on. I remember we'd play in the playground pretending we were Buzz Aldrin or Neil Armstrong or whatever.(Subjects: spacerace) Did you get to watch Apollo 11 live? I don't remember. I think so. I remember watching them on TV. I can't tell you if it was 11 or 12 or 13 or whatever. I think so. And of course, I had to go to bed at a certain time.(Subjects: spacerace) Sid you go to a lot of rodeos as a kid? And what were those like? Yeah, well there was the Central Wyoming Ferron Rodeo which was in Casper, and it always took place a week before Cheyenne Frontier Days. And Cheyenne Frontier Days was in the top three rodeos in the world. So the Central Wyoming to Casper Rodeo has always played a week before Cheyenne. That way we could attract all the big cowboys. And the Chamber of Commerce or somebody came up with money for big rodeo purses to attract the big rodeo stars. And of course, it's Wyoming, and rodeo was a big thing there. So we would get the big old stars and we would get big headliners, you know, like Tonya Tucker. I remember seeing Doug Kershaw. He was a fiddle player, but I didn't watch those. But the rodeo was there and a big deal. And we got to see some of those famous ones. I can't remember their names, but you cheered them when they pulled out their cow or their horse. And then it influenced me enough. I did rodeo when I was in high school. I did it for the girls. Didn't pan out very well, but I wanted to be a cowboy. Went to them and in high school you could do high school rodeo. And the national finals high school rodeo was in Douglas, which was 50 miles away. And the college national finals was in Casper too. I mean, so yeah, we got to go see a lot of rodeo and those people are very patriotic. And talking about people who love their neighbor, it's those country folk, those rodeo hand, I mean, I saw him literally give the shirt off their back to somebody. So that was my heroes(Subjects: culture:rodeo) How did technology change? Like did TV get a lot better? Household appliances, stuff like that? I remember buying a 19, I was in seventh grade. I mean, 74, 75, my dad going down buying a microwave for mom for Christmas. I remember getting a color TV about that same time. In high school, I remember going and looking at the first computer I ever saw. It was in the office. They did attendance on it. I remember, early technology is one of those things that goes on an exponential curve. You know, it's not linear, it doesn't have a slope. It, the faster it goes, the faster it gets. So it's logarithmic. And I remember that growing up. Our first phone line was a party line, which means you pick the phone up and listen to other people talking. But then, you know, that went away. So, oh, hey, we get, you know, we can dial our own number. And cable TV came sometime in the early seventies to, we couldn't afford it, but some friends who had it. And then, of course, here we are now talking over a computer. And some little things waving at me. I don't even know what's going on. So, you know, artificial intelligence is now on the news. I mean, where's it going to stop? I have no idea. I don't, I got to say something about it. I'm not a fan of it. I liked it back in the 60s and 70s when your car ran on a carburetor and when it broke down, you knew why. You might have had to walk someplace to get somebody to give you a ride home. So you could go get your dad to tow you home, but it was much simpler. And it wouldn't sit on their butt as much staring at a screen. Well, we didn't, we didn't do that at all. We were outside.(Subjects: technology) Do you remember any sort of fashion trends at the time that were kind of just like weird or different now? Anything influential to you? Oh yeah. Bell bottoms. I remember my mom would go repair my jeans, you know, that tore on the legs and just sewed them up with American flag, kind of red, white and blue patches. And then she flared the bottom with the same red, white and blue. And I was in tall cotton then with that pair of jeans. Yes sir. Ah, yeah, it's cool. And then of course the stupid look, you look at it back at them and I'm looking at a picture right now of me and those, some bell bottoms. I'm about 12. I'm holding a string or a fish and I got bell bottoms on and it looks just terrible. Long hair. Now most of the people where I grew up had short hair. If we saw a long haired person, we were like, hey, look. So that's where we lived. I think I'll wrap it up with this one.(Subjects: culture, clothing) Do you remember any particular like toys or gadgets that you played with that were popular for kids at the time? Well, I remember some. We played with the football most of the time in the park, but I remember Kenny. Kenny was, they were a little richer than the rest of us. He got the evil Knievel and you could crank it up and jump. It was a little evil Knievel that you'd put on a little motorcycle and then you'd put it in this gizmo and crank it up and then release the brake and he goes zooming off. I remember that one. That was about 1969. GI Joe is what we played with a lot. We'd take them down the creek and throw them in, you know, hit them with a bat. We didn't have a lot of toys. Kenny did, but most of my friends didn't because we just didn't have the money for it. There's more money here now than there used to be. People are overall wealthier. They can afford more luxuries. So, you know, we got to eat and we had a football. I think all three of us had a football, the same one and that's what we did.(Subjects: culture, toys)

Donna Ellis Click to filter

Okay. I'm just gonna read a few things. Basically, participation in this project is voluntary. You may withdraw the project or end the interview at any time. Duration of the interview will vary. Probably around 30 minutes is my goal. That's what we're supposed to do. The interview will be recorded and transcribed. A copy of each will be made available to you. The recording of the interview may contain material to which you hold copyright. You may transfer copyright to the material to the regents, the University of Idaho,. Transcripts, the University of Idaho students, faculty, and staff as well as researchers visiting the specialist collection and archives may use the interview for any research, educational, promotional, or other purpose deemed appropriate. And the University of Idaho library will preserve the interview and just trans and transcript the interview will be made publicly accessible through the U of I library for scholarly and historical purposes, including potentially through a website. Is that all okay with you? (Subjects: consent) Well, I guess it is.That would just put me down in posterity. Right? Exactly. We had to, like, read this whole thing about making sure we get accurate consent. Right. Right. And so I have a list of questions. So the first one I'm going to start with is during you and when I say the 19 sixties, it's like at any point during it, however you feel. So what kind of television shows did you or music would you say you listen to a lot during the time?(Subjects: culture, music, television) Well, television shows, that's really hard for me to remember right now. Maybe I better come help you. Yeah. Papa better come and help me. I we've probably watched, Disney. I I don't know if that was on in the seventies. I mean, the sixties. Sorry. I don't know. I didn't really watch very much television in that first part of the of the sixties. I was in college, and there were no TVs around to watch TV. Yeah. We watched there was a cowboy or something like that movie on Sunday night. Bonanza. Western Bonanza or something was on. We watched Bonanza, I guess.(Subjects: television, culture) Oh, very nice. If that one would, we could also, like, have a change, like a pivot. Did you listen to a lot of music? Would you-(Subjects: culture, music) No No? No. I didn't. Okay. That was, like, our first little one. Did religion play a large role in your life, and did you attend church pretty frequently during this time?(Subjects: religion) Yes. It played a large role in my life. I went to a Christian college, and I attended church regularly during the whole decade.(Subjects: religion) Very nice. Do you think that played a factor in kinda shaping your world views and society at the time at all?(Subjects: religion, culture) Yes. I think it did. I know that during that time, the, the hippie, quote, movement started in San Francisco, and that was very far removed from anything that I was doing at the time. I was busy working, trying to get through school. And, was not interested in, being a flower child or protesting anything.(Subjects: religion, culture) Yeah. Which that kind of can dive us into our next question of, the sixties was a pretty big, decade for, like, civil rights movements. We saw, like, MLK, Civil Rights Act, and different organizations like that. How did it feel to watch the civil rights movement unfold throughout the 1960s?(Subjects: culture, movements) Well, I think that the things that we saw were very sad. You know, that what we would see in the, on TV, about the marches and the fire hoses, used on the people. And, it affected us a little bit on that when, Martin Luther King was shot. We were living in Leavenworth, Kansas then. Dad was in the, the army, and we had planned a weekend trip. But because of that, we he had to stay right on base, because of, you know, the unrest, I guess. So it did affect us in that way.(Subjects: culture, movements, assasination) Yeah. I know. Especially, like, everything going on right now politically, you know, assassinations. Do you think because was it no. Yeah. Sorry. When it was, like, Martin Luther King's assassination, do you remember kinda, like, the reaction to it? Like, what was your reaction or, like, society at the time? Like, how do you think they took it?(Subjects: culture, movements, assasination) Well, I think it was terrible. And, of course, we'd already lived through the assassination of, president Kennedy. Yeah. Which was the worst thing that we could think of. And, I think it just brought the whole country, you know, to a standstill. And I think that most people were very sad about the, fascination of Martin Luther King because he was proclaiming peaceful, methods and so on.(Subjects: movements, assasination) Yeah. And then kind of to build off, like, the idea of the civil rights movement, be 1960s was big for a plethora of different groups, not just people of color. But do you have any memories of, like, the feminist movement and how it affected, like, gender roles throughout that time? Do you remember any of that?(Subjects: culture, gender, movements) Well, I remember they were burning their bras. And it really didn't affect me because I like I said, I was in college. I got married during the sixties, and I worked all of those years. Those, up until 1970. And that movement did not affect me in my job. Mhmm. I didn't feel like, you know, men got a better, spot or anything like that. Mhmm. So I was probably removed from the feminist movement. I didn't see any need to, protest.(Subjects: culture, gender, movements) Yeah. Yeah. I just wanted to ask that one. And then, I guess I forget what year exactly it was. I think it was 1963 we saw the assassination, kinda just to circle back to that, of president, Kennedy. And what do you remember the, like I guess we can start with, like, the political atmosphere after that happened, like, or just kind of like the overall, like, as a country, like, feeling?(Subjects: politics, assasination) Well, I think it it reminded me of the country after 9/11. The it, you know, it was very serious, and the whole it didn't matter which political party you were in. It was a terrible, terrible thing to happen, and, you know, things just kind of closed down. And as far as the politics then, I know that Lyndon Johnson was probably escalating the war in Vietnam when he came in, and that was still the time of the of the draft. So every young man knew that they were gonna go, and most likely, they were gonna go to Vietnam. (Subjects: politics, assasination, vietnam) Yeah. Which I think that brings up a great point that I was gonna ask next, but how did the how did the war affect you and, like, the community that you were living in at the time? I know that, papa had to go. How did it affect you, though?(Subjects: culture, vietnam) Well, it was, it was very scary. You know, we would see these things on the news, and the only way we had to communicate was with letters and they were not very steady. Like if you wrote one every day, you wouldn't get one every day. They might build up and it might take a while. I remember sending a package that didn't get there because it was right after we were married in 1965 in December January, that Papa got his orders that he was going to Vietnam and, you're always worried that if you saw a military car or a military person coming to your work or something that they were gonna come and tell you some very bad news. Mhmm. That was for a year that we lived that way. And it was now my friends that we were close to, they had boyfriends and husbands also in the war so that we were, people weren't protesting like us around us closely. But I know those protests were going on in other places against the war and that, it made it hard for the the men coming home.(Subjects: vietnam, culture) Mhmm. Yeah. And I think that brings up, like, a great next kind of question to ask is how did he, like, how did you feel about the war at the time?(Subjects: vietnam ) Well, I think I was I was just afraid. I really didn't have the political you know, you would see on TV that so many died each day. They would put this news up, and they would show shots of different things happening. And I wasn't studying politics at the time and knowing that maybe we were fighting a war that we shouldn't have been fighting. But we were citizens and you do what you're supposed to do. And if you're drafted and they send you, you go. But the politics of it, I probably learned a lot more later than I was dealing with at that time that during the time that papa was in Vietnam.(Subjects: vietnam, politics) Yeah. I know. I've it's been really interesting during this class, like, kinda learning more about, like, Vietnam and the draft and things. So Yeah. But I guess we can kinda pivot from there and kinda talk about another kinda like issue that was going on at the time. But, what would you say your reaction or kinda like the general consensus of like the community you lived in pertaining to nuclear warfare, due to the cold war? And, like, what was your thoughts? (Subjects: coldwar, nuclear, politics) I you know, I don't remember much of that cold war during the sixties. I I remember it before that being in school, and we'd have the bomb drills, you know, under the desk. And I really don't think I have a lot of thoughts or remembering anything on the on the new on nuclear things going on during that time. I know that we were kind of always afraid of Russia, taking over.(Subjects: coldwar ) Yeah. Like the red scare and everything..(Subjects: coldwar) Mhm.. And so you what year did you graduate from college? 1965 1965, so the same year you and papa got married, right? Right So did you, did you start teaching in the sixties then? I started in the fall of 65. That was my first teaching job. Very nice. And how would you say, like, I guess even stemming from, like, the first couple years of you teaching in that early years, compared to, like, when you retired later on, did you ever see, like, a shift in, like, schooling or how things are kinda looked at?(Subjects: culture, education) Right. In fact, when I first was teaching, there was not a teacher's union that everyone belonged to. And there were not so many the parents weren't telling the teachers how to teach or, there probably weren't so many special services as they have, you know, at the end of, you know, whenever it can be identified with an IEP and so on like that. At the beginning, it was the teachers were, thought highly of where I was teaching. And I'm not sure that that's always today still happening.(Subjects: education, union) Mhmm. Yeah. I know. I think it's really interesting to see, like, the shift from that and kind of different things. But I kinda have a fun question to ask you next because I know you got married in 1965. So leading up to that, what was dating like back then?(Subjects: culture) What was dating like? Well, you would usually go to dinner. We went to sporting events. We didn't really date for very long. We dated for about a month before he went in the army. He was then home after 8 weeks. He was home for 2 weeks, I guess, from basic training before he went to his tech school. And so we dated during that time, go to dinner, a lot of sporting events, movies. And then the next time I saw him, we were planning a wedding and getting married.(Subjects: culture, dating) Very nice. So maybe a little different than nowadays with social media and dating apps and everything. Probably very different. Right? Yeah. What would you what do you say I know we talked a little bit about religion and how it played a factor in your life, but do you think back then religion had a bigger impact on society as a whole and people took it more seriously in comparison today?(Subjects: culture, religion) I think that more people did attend church and probably did take it more seriously. Before the sixties, you really wouldn't hear of too many, people rebelling over different things, like, started happening in the in the sixties. So I think it probably had a bigger influence then than now.(Subjects: culture, religion) I know. I think that's interesting to think about because when you see, like, those or even, like, when you read historical texts, it's a lot of, like, religious oriented even, like, when you look at Martin Luther King Junior and stuff. What I'm trying to find how I can word this. I guess after JFK was assassinated because that was, I think, in 63. Right. And he was going into an election. Do you think that played a factor in I don't even maybe voter turnout or, like, kind of do you think it boosted, LBJ's chances at winning?(Subjects: politics) It's hard it's hard to say on that. You know, I know that I voted. And but before that, you know, the election when JFK was elected, I was still in high school. Mhmm. Or at least the preliminaries to that election and, you know, and then my classes, we were studying the different candidates and things like that. So I was knowing more, learning more about the elections then like in, you know, 60 I graduated in 61 from high school. So I don't know whether more people turned out because the news is not wasn't telling us things like that Yeah. Event. Do you know, whether there is a big turnout or not? I mean, I know that we always watch the elections and the returns, but you didn't get all of the information from all the different sources that you would today on those kinds of things.(Subjects: politics, elections) Yeah. And I think that brings me to, like, kinda my next question is what I mean, in comparison today, politics is such a polarizing topic. Would you how would you say compared, from back then to today, like, what was different about politics? Like, what people's interactions,(Subjects: politics, culture) Well, I think if there was a debate and wasn't wasn't Nixon and Kenned- JFK had the first debates, I think that was what it was. They were not up there bad mouthing each other.. They were debating the issues, and there was not nobody until this last couple of elections have been so bad about all they can do is just say bad things about the other person. Which is really off off topic because half the time, it's not true.(Subjects: politics, culture) Yeah. I know. I think it's super I just think it was elections just seem to be more of a democracy.(Subjects: politics) Yeah. I know. I think that was something super interesting we were looking at, in one of my courses, debates from, like, back then to, like, now when it's just, like, so dramatically different. It's like, oh, they get out there and, like, even I think we looked at one from, like, maybe 2,008 or 2012. I think it was one of Obama's. And during their downtime, the candidates are talking, asking each other, oh, like, how's the family? Blah blah blah. And, like, compared to now, it's like, ugh. Just Yeah. Polarizing. Oh, right. That was, you know, you would ask about church and and so on. And a lot of a lot of church people, protestants, didn't wanna vote for Kennedy because he was Catholic and they thought the pope was going to be running America if he won. But, you know, that did not turn out to be true. Yeah. But that was that was one of the polarizing thing there in that election, I remember.(Subjects: politics, religion) Yeah. What I mean, like, even, like, in comparison today, like, what would you say, like, your day to day, how does it, like how is it different, like, today than it was way back then other than it's been a while, if that makes sense.(Subjects: culture) You mean just well, right now, we're in such an everything is so inflated to prices that for people that are on a limited income, it would be really really hard to go and pay triple price for, bread or a fruit bowl or whatever you're going to to do. You know, the gas and the our utilities and the fact that, nowadays, insurance, like car insurance and especially homeowners in California are canceling people all the time, because they don't wanna ride insurance in California because of the wildfires. And now our house, of course, is not in a wild wild fire area, but our company quit riding. And so we'd had them for, what, 22 years or something, and, goodbye. Yeah. Well, I know. So I don't remember those. I don't remember, you know, it was in the seventies when we had the gas shortages. Mhmm. That was not in the sixties. I mean, we in the sixties, we could pay 19¢ a gallon for gas. And so you and our utilities were not very much. And, you know, the everything kinda was more stable price wise. And now we've just seen it go up and up and up.That's been crazy.(Subjects: culture) That's been crazy. Trying to think of any other ones that I need to make sure to ask you. Was there anything that went on during the 19 sixties that felt like earth shattering at the time to you? Like, oh, this is so different. Like, setting a new precedent that occurred throughout that decade, it could pertain to truly anything.(Subjects: culture) Well, the things that I remember from the sixties that were so different were the protests, the hippie movement, you know, the flower children and, that kind of rebelled there. Most of them were wealthy, and they were rebelling against the status quo, I guess, that their parents, you know, had worked for, and the assassination of our president. Those were the the big things, you know, in the world that that I remember. Yeah.(Subjects: culture) Yeah. I think it's always interesting when people talk about JFK and just just how big that moment was. And then the protest about the flower child, what was what was it about?(Subjects: culture, movements) Well, it was the status quo. They, you know, they decided they didn't want to have a job and work 9 to 5 or whatever their job was. They wanted they would rather do their own thing, live in communes Try to say tune in to an awful lot of this. What was it? Try to think. Tune in. Turn on your And the they would take up different causes, and so they would of course, one of them being the war in Vietnam Mhmm. That they would, protest against. And there were, oh, I don't know if this was in the sixties. The I was thinking of that Patty Hirsch. It might have been in the sixties. It was sixties. It might have been in the seventies. And there were, a group a group that kind of brainwashed her or something. She was very rich and then she was kidnapped and became part of this militant group. SLA or something? Something like SLA or something. It was it was very weird. I don't know if that was the 6 late sixties or or early seventies even. But I think the protest was against the war. That's mainly what I remember. But they would protest businesses too. That they didn't think were They're supporting the war war effort. The businesses that would support the war effort. And, it wasn't so much the environment at that time. Yeah. But I just say the status quo. They didn't they didn't care for that. Yeah.(Subjects: culture, movements) I think as we wrap up, is there any other thing that really stuck out to you in the 19 sixties that you really just think We got married. Oh my goodness. Those were the those were really the big things. You know? I graduated from high school in the sixties. I graduated from college in the sixties. I met papa in the sixties. Mhmm. And we did we, we were still yeah. We didn't even buy a house until after in the seventies. So we were still renting there, and he was getting through school. He finished his degree in 1970, and I've had Suzy in 1970. So he started teaching that September, and I stayed home that September of 1970. So we had, you know, we had a great church there at at First Church in Pasadena, and we had many, many, many friends. And we would get together with our friends, and they were having babies. And, you know, we'd all of those kinds of things. It was a great family time in the late sixties seventies for us. But as far as the politics and things like that, I think we've already covered all those main things that that we remember, the assassinations and Yeah.

Kaye Felt Click to filter

Hello, my name is Cooper Simmonsen and I am here today to interview Kaye Felt, and she is my grandma, so that is our relation to eachother. The date is currently September 24th, 2024. The purpose of this interview is to explore Kaye's experiences in the long 1960's. Kaye do I have your oral consent to the recording of our conversation today? Yes ma'am. Okay, Kaye we will begin. Where and when were you born?(Subjects: childhood) I was born in Boise, Idaho in 1953. How many siblings do you have? Four. Four, okay. And what did your parents do for work? My mother spent most of her career working in the government at HUD and my father was a manufacturer representative and he traveled alot. Okay, I will get on with some questions about your life and the long 1960's. So how we do it is 1955-1975, that whole period. Oh okay. Yes, so how did the Vietnam War affect your community?(Subjects: vietnam) Well, actually Idaho is a very conservative state and when my husband graduated from college, I think after he graduated they started the draft. He was very anti-war, and so was I, and he ended up getting a conscientious objector, being classified as that, and went to the peace corps for two years. But he told me, and I always found this interesting, he told me that the people at the draft office really worked with him so he could go to Africa instead of to Vietnam and I thought that was interesting. That is interesting Because I would assume that the recruiters and the people that work with you in Idaho, fairly conservative, may not tend towards helping people out that much So to clarify he got drafted and then chose to not- Right, and that's a big deal. You've never experienced the draft and it really makes you more aware of the war and the death. Right now we don't hear much about our soldiers or the fatalities and without a draft, most of them are lower-class people that don't really have alot of money to go to school. I think that is the big difference. You knew people who went to Vietnam, and you knew people who came home and had PTSD. In my community, or at least from what I read and my interpretations was that it was a useless war, we were never going to win, I was not sure why we were there, and the government was not open about how many people were dying. One of the things I really remember was that I learned that North Vietnam and South Vietnam came to a truce but Nixon decided to have them put it off so he could win the election. There was a lot about that war that did not make me happy, and I think that I mentioned to you that there were probably ten years where I could not say the pledge of allegiance because I was so ashamed of our country. Yes, you had mentioned that. Going back to the draft: were you scared? Well, did you have brothers?(Subjects: vietnam) Yeah, they weren't drafted and Gary, my husband, was my older brother's bestfriend and I knew him because he would come obver to visit Ron, my brother. He would walk through the house and go "hi". I was just the little sister. That's what I remember of Gary, so I didn't really know a lot about his experiences with the draft until after he got back. I did hear that he had gone to Sierra Leone. For the Peace Corps, right? Yes Growing up, were you afraid? Was there a sort of fear from the draft knowing that there was a possibility of your brothers or anyone you knew being drafted?(Subjects: vietnam) Yeah, it was a consideration. I would have to say the Cold War was much scarier, personally, and for people I knew. (Subjects: coldwar) How so? I am trying to think back, let's see. Kennedy was asssinated in 1963. The Cold War had been going on since the end of WWII and Russia decided that they wanted to put nuclear missles in Cuba. So there was a six day period where, I mean literally, Russian ships with nuclear missles were headed toward Cuba and the United States ships were headed toward the Russian ships. Probably for a whole year they had nuclear bomb drills, which affects you because, it's like, if there is a nuclear bomb you are supposed to get under your desk or line up against the wall with your head down in your arms. I was fairly young, but I always thought, "How is this going to protect me from a nuclear bomb?". I was smart enough to know that, I had seen the big white cloud. But I was still young enough that I remember I was worried about not finding my parents. I decided I would just go home and they would drive and pick me up, so my logic was not real clear. But during the Cuban Missle Crisis, there were several high level officers and politicians that went into hiding, or bunkers. It was a tense time because you did not know which one was going to pull the trigger first. But Kennedy stood up and didn't back down, and the Russians turned around. It was very tense for everyone. And that was tense everywhere you went? Oh yes. and I remember, for an example, the first time I realized I was just a common person was, I had a friend, a rich friend and I went to play with her and she showed me her bomb shelter. I thought, "Wow it would be nice to be rich". It was underground and they had all their food stacked up and I thought, "Wow they are lucky". Because it was just like "Too bad you don't have enough money for that but, whatever". (Subjects: coldwar) That was in Boise? Someone had a bomb shelter? Yes, quite a few people did. Of course, you never thought true at that age "What are they staying alive for if they survive?". Yeah They were really rich in my mind. Well, I mean, if they had the means to just build a bomb shelter. Oh, yeah. Out of concrete, it was nice. They had a few pictures in there, probably nicer than my house. Do you remember the threats of nuclear warfare in forms of media? Like TV or comic books if you were a kid, or any other book?(Subjects: coldwar, media) I didn't read comic books. I was aware of the "mushroom cloud" and saw pictures of the testing in Nevada where it just scorches the whole Earth and people burn with their skin on and, I mean it is a total wipeout. I remember that, and I didn't have a bomb shelter. So what were you to do. We can move on to civil rights. If you can remember, do you remember how it felt to watch the Civil Rights Movement unfold throughout the 1960s.(Subjects: crm) Yeah, I remember the war protests and I remember the march over Selma's bridge. But in Boise, Idaho I knew one black in highschool and I thought it was really neat because we made him homecoming king. So, I did not have a lot of black experience, but I was certainly aware of the discrimination. I remember hearing about Emmett Till getting murdered, lynched, it was horrible. I remember when Kennedy changed the laws to make integration a law. I remember seeing this one little black school girl being taken to a white school with armoured men all around her. I remember the Governer of Mississippi getting on TV and he said, "White now, white forever, no segregation over my dead grave". So you were aware of it. Boise, Idaho was pretty sheltered. So how did you learn about those events? What were you reading or listening to?(Subjects: media) I read a lot and I watched a lot of news. I have just always been a curious person about current events. Living in Boise, and that being more of a rural area, what was that community's reaction to the Civil Rights Movement?(Subjects: crm, community) Well, I remember hearing from a few adults that they wished Martin Luther King would just shut up, settle down, and be happy. So there was very little understanding and still is not a huge understanding of what it is like to be black in America. I don't remember a lot of people talking to me about it. My parents weren't necessarily prejudice, except against the Japanese which always cracked me up. As I've grown up I realized that was because of the WWII, but I don't know. Did that answer your question? Yeah, it does. And actually, we were talking about that prejudice against Japanese people today in class. I know, when my mom would say that... I never heard, except for Martin Luther King to settle down... I never heard prejudice comments from my parents, ever. Except the Japanese. I would just kinda laugh and go, "what's the deal with the Japanese?". But then as I have gotten older, I realized she was a product of WWII. Yeah, that kind of shaped a lot of people. I think it shaped her. It is kind of interesting that there wasn't that long held prejudice against the Germans. Isn't that interesting? Yeah and we were talking about it and it is because the people, they talk about the European front and you go there and they are all singing Christmas songs, they look like them, they all have the same cultural norms. Exactly, they look like them. Yeah, and then when you go to the Pacific front, they were calling them savages and whatnot. Horrible, horrible drawings of Japanese people and how they were depicted. Oh, you mean in propaganda? Yes. Do you remember MLK's assination?(Subjects: assassination) Yes. I remember Kennedy's assassination shortly after the Cuban Missle Crisis, and I remember Martin Luther King Jr.'s assassination and I remember the assassination of Lee Harvery Oswald, who shot Kennedy. They were moving him to a different jail, and a guy just walked up and shot him with all these police around. I remember Robert Kennedy getting shot. So, you know, there was a lot of violence and unrest. But I do remember Martin Luther King. What do you remember about that? I remember his plea for peaceful marches. He kind of tried to mirror Ghandi, and so he was very much into peaceful change. I remember the Black Panthers, who were radical and against Martin Luther King because they thought he was moving too slow. They would go in and bomb some stuff, I don't remember a lot of people dying. So there was even extremes in the black movements. (Subjects: crm) Yeah, and you said how, especially the older generations, would say that MLK needed to settle down. So, I am sure their reactions to groups like Black Panthers- "What is he complaining about" [laughing]. That's interesting And frankly, I think he could still find things to complain about today. Do you remember your community's reaction to MLK, or the world's? Was it mostly sadness and greif during that time?(Subjects: assassination, community) You know, Cooper, I just remember watching it on TV and hearing people who knew him talk. I lived in Boise, Idaho. No, I don't remember a lot of people talking about it. I do remember people being extremely sad and in shock over JFK's assassination. They weren't happy, I suppose about Martin Luther King but they just weren't as tied into it. I never heard anybody mention it, to tell you the truth. That makes sense. Moving on to culture: What forms of media were prevelent in your life during this time? This can mean anything. I mean, TV, music. (Subjects: media) Mostly TV, newspapers, and magazines. I remember reading Newsweek a lot. I can even remember that we were the second family on our block that got a TV. So, it was reletavely a new medium. We watched test pattern for about four days, we were all excited. Do you know what that is? No. Test pettern is a thing they used to do to make sure you are getting the signal, and it is just a black screen. So, that was exciting. That is funny. What did you watch on TV? I don't remember any favorites, I can't. That's okay. Was music a big part of your life?(Subjects: media) Yeah, a lot. I was just thinking. I would watch TV when the Beatles were on TV or anytime musicians were on TV. We used to have to buy 45s, which are very small records and play 45s. You would go buy one when it came out. I was thinking about this project and I heard on the radio that the day after JFK was assassinated, the Beatles came out with "She Loves Me", and just started thinking, "Wow. Look at how music changed from 'She Loves Me' to Woodstock". Huge, huge. I would go to concerts if I could, or even if I wasn't supposed to [laughs]. So music was a big part of it. What artists did you mostly listen to?(Subjects: media ) The Who, Crosby Stills & Nash, Neil Young. Pretty much anybody that was at Woodstock, but I did not make it to Woodstock. Do you remember how influencial that was?(Subjects: counterculture ) Yeah, I was jealous [laughs]. I look back on it now, it was kind of a mess. But yeah, I remember it. It was pretty influencial. Was it a big controversy? Yes, "All those dirty hippies taking up iall that land with their long, scrappy hair and their free-lovin drugs. Why are we even hearing about this?". You know, I was pretty young when the hippies started becoming a force and I always looked at them as being enlightened, being very politically aware, being activists, mobilizing, trying to find a better way, and as the years went on, so many of them actually just became drug addicts. So, I got a little disillusioned with the hippies. (Subjects: counterculture) Okay, I'm back. Kaye's phone died, so we are just going to resume where we left off. Hopefully it's still working. We left off on your experience and influence of the counterculture that was prevelant in the hippies. Yes, and I did want to clarify on the counter culture. I think that there were a lot of good people there that accomplished aazing things but my experience, I dont mean to make everyone seem the same, but my experience was a lot of people got addicted. (Subjects: counterculture) Yeah, thank you for that clarification. That was your experience, so that is completely valid. Were there people in your life that were interested in that counter culture movement? Well, my husband. Big time. He was politcal buff and an English and History major, so he had a lot of knowledge. He learned a lot in the Peace Corps and I think that is initially what I liked about him. A lot of people said he was really good-looking and I honestly did not notice because I liked his mind so much. I need bright people around me because I'm not that bright. Yes you are! I guess that brings me to my next question which brings up gender in that time and the norms surrounding that. So, what was dating like?(Subjects: dating) I didn't date that much, but it was obviously conventional. You know, going to a dance, riding in the back seat, the boys open the door, the girl look pretty and smell nice. One of the reasons that Gary and I got along so well is that the first sign he gave me lit up and it said "bullshit" because I was the first woman to ever call him on it. So I was pretty, and still am, assertive. You know, never bought into the role of "women", that's why I can't cook [laughs]. Was that becoming more normal in that time?(Subjects: gender) No, you know, the women's movement truly was a movement. It didn't just change overnight. All of these things took time and we are still seeing the effects of the Me Too Movement. But, there were a lot of people who thought the woman's place was in the home. Still, a lot of women went out and burned their bras. I never did that. (Subjects: movements, gender) What do you mean? What is that? I just remember that they used to have marches, women's movement marches and they would burn their bras while they were marching. Or marched without a bra on. It was a point of being liberated, you know. I guess that's a pretty good way to show that [laughs]. I haven't heard about that. At least it brought attention to the cause [laughs]. I am sure a lot more people listened. Oh a lot more watched. You know that, anyway. Do you remember when women did gain more rights, such as access to birth control or credit cards?(Subjects: movements, gender) I think that they invention of birth control is what played a major part in what was "sex, drugs and rock&roll". You know, because that is unheard of. You don't have to worry about getting pregnant. But, I think that contributed to the movement. Does that answer your question? Yeah, I was just asking what you remember of it, so yes. But, again, it is like any movement. It is still ongoing. The Me Too Movement, black justice. We are moving towards a more perfect union. We are just on a little detour here. Makes sense. Did you experience any of those feminist movements when you were in the workforce?(Subjects: feminism) Oh yeah. I was going to college and I was sitting at a bar waiting for my friend to get off work and the manager dropped by and said something like, "Well you're not much to look at but we need some help". I went "Okay. Gee, thanks" [laughs]. It was horrible, just horrible. The big joke was to do a "man sandwhich wih women", all the men had notches on their belts. It was very, very misogynitic. Yeah , I guess that shows how far we've come in a way. Yeah. Okay, my final question for you is: we now know how influential the 1960s was. Did it feel that earth-shattering to you at the time?(Subjects: perception) Yes, it did. I think the main thing was the marching. All the people gathering and marching for a cause. We don't really see that anymore and it really just brings it to the forefront. Yeah. Well, thank you for your time Kaye. Those are all the questions I have, so I apreciate you and sharing your experiences. Well thank you for your time.

Kay-Hall Click to filter

Hello, my name is Connor Dremann, and this is my nineteen-sixties oral history interview with my grandmother Kay Hall. Alright, let's start with. When and where were you born, and where were you grew up?(Subjects: Introduction) My name is Marjorie K. Hall. I was born in the mining time of Kellogg, Idaho. I lived in the nearby town of Wallace, Idaho when the town was booming with the mine business. This is where my father worked through my entire childhood. Growing up there was always something to do around town. I mostly helped my mom look after my 4 younger siblings. I was born first in my family and am a member of the silent generation. I attended an all-girls school with the graduating class of 11.(Subjects: Childhood) What was education like? Were there any challenges?(Subjects: Education) When I was at school, education was sitting in my seat and listening to what the teacher had to say. Every girl educated back then was for a test, it wasn't why things happened just know this information, and we pretty much worked on the knowledge base. School was challenging in its own way. You mostly got the information from a textbook and had very few group discussions. It was uncomfortable to ask questions in the classroom, unlike today. Although I do feel like I received a great education. There was not a lot of extended curriculum like today, such as electives. There was no preparation for high-level math in high school, it was not taught in the lower grades. This was coming from a parochial(Catholic) school. Growing up as a girl, they would influence us to pursue the career paths, of secretary, bank teller, teacher, nurse, nun, or housewife. Although they did not discourage us from receiving higher education. In my high school graduating class, I was one of the few students to continue my education and finish my degree. I started my college career at North Idaho Junior College, where I received my provisional certificate to start teaching after two years of education after that I would go back to summer school, every year, working towards my degree at the University of Idaho. Finally, in 1966, I received my BS from the University of Idaho. I then taught in Las Vegas for one year and then decided I'd like to go abroad to teach. So I taught for the Department of Defense, first in the Asia theater in Okinawa, then later moved to Germany to teach.(Subjects: Education) Did you enjoy it? What were the other countries, perceptions of the United States?(Subjects: International) I taught in Okinawa in 1967 I was on an Air Force Base, so I had very little contact with the native Okinawans, so I really don't know how they felt about us. I felt, I think they felt like they were there to be subservient to us, because we all had to have a maid, and they worked in the officer's clubs and all that. This was also at the height of the Vietnam War. The base was packed with troops and their families. Because we were so crowded we had to have split sessions at the elementary school. The typical day was 12:30-5 with a 15-minute break. Germany is a little different story. I could pick up on questions like, Why were we in Vietnam, and things like that. They were they wanted to question us. And most of the people at that time wanted to know about the Kennedys overseas. They would always ask me like I was personal friends with them, you know, and they people abroad, really liked JFK. In 1969, this is where I met my husband and we got engaged. I knew this was when I was ready to start my life with my husband as we moved back to the United States. Back to Georgia where we would start our family. I had your mom in 1970.(Subjects: International) Did the Civil Rights Movement impact your community or your personal life? Were you involved in or affected by any of the events?(Subjects: Civil, Rights) As far as the Civil Rights Movement's having an impact on me or my community? I don't think so, because I, at that time was either living in northern Idaho or Montana, in all-white communities, so no one really discussed it, as far as me personally, when I watched on the evening news, Walter Cronkite and he was showing the riots in Selma, Alabama at the different station of Martin Luther King at Malcolm X, and the little children that were killed at the Baptist Church of Birmingham, Alabama. That really affected my life and I kind of became very prejudiced against anybody in the south, thinking that they all treated everybody treated black people like that. Little did I know that I would marry a Southerner and move to the South.(Subjects: Civil, Rights) That's interesting. role did music play in shaping the culture around you? Did you have any favorite artists or memorable concerts back in the 60s? (Subjects: Music) Music was very important to all people. I think no matter where you live, everybody loved to dance. Everybody loved to go to clubs and dance from country western clubs to rock and roll clubs. When I was in the 60s, the first concert I can remember I ever went to see was Pat Boone, and I thought that was really something I'd never been to a concert before my life. And then that was about it for me in the 60s, as far as going to concerts, I've always loved music. And it was so important back then because people, like I said, they dance. Some of my favorite artists were Elvis Presley, Jerry Lee Lewis, Bob Dylan, Steppenwolf, Rolling Stones, and the Beach Boys. It was a lot harder to listen to the music at home, I had to wait weeks before the records came to our local record shop. In Wallace, there was one record store and we had to wait weeks until we could purchase the new track to listen at home. Otherwise, I had to rely on the radio at home. I remember Woodstock, it had a lot of influence on the younger people and their views. It was broadcasted on TV. I haven't seen an event like this since. (Subjects: Music) Did you notice any significant changes in gender roles or women's rights during the 1960s What was your perspective on the feminist movements?(Subjects: Gender) Yes, I did notice some changes during the women's movement during the 1960s I was very interested in it. I read everything I could get my hands on. And of course, at that time, you were thought of as being kind of weird or a real progressive liberal if you did that type of thing. But I was raised in a family of strong women, and I was always taught to stick up for myself. Both my mother and my maternal grandmother taught me that well, so I never let people push me around. I was never obnoxious about it, but I stood up for myself as an example. I never had a woman principal until I was in Okinawa. Administrative jobs were typically held by men. When I first started teaching school at Kalispell, the women would always come in and make the coffee in the morning, and the men never had to do anything. And finally, I said, I'm not doing it anymore until the men take their turns a small thing but it was just expected the women, waited on the men.(Subjects: Gender) Were you aware of the counterculture movement? What was your reaction to the culture shift?(Subjects: Counterculture) Yes, I was aware of it, but not part of it. I was just that much older that I wasn't in that generation that were hippies and free love and all this type of thing. However, I have a younger sister who was very much into it, with the long hair and all the makeup, short mini dresses, and things like that, she looked at the world totally different from me. Let me tell you. What I do remember about this time was how people dressed, bell bottom pants, the dresses, lots of loud, loud colors, lime green, bright lemon, fuchsia pinks, lot of color and design, big flowers. The women wore a lot of makeup, long, straight hair, and dangly earrings. I first became aware of the hippie movement when I read about and saw on TV the hate Haight Ashbury Park. My sister Mary, was very into this so I was able to experience it firsthand even though I did not participate.(Subjects: Counterculture) Contrary to counterculture, how did the people around you feel about the Vietnam War, and how did it influence your opinions on politics or the government?(Subjects: Vietnam) First of all, this was the first war we saw every nightly, nightly on the news. We saw the fighting. We saw the destruction. We saw what was going on. So it really had an effect on all people, all people, whether it be positive or negative. To me, it was a negative thing. My father was a World War Two vet and he was very anti-war, after being in the war, and I was anti-Vietnam, I did not see the reason for us to be there. The My Lai Massacre, the war crime by the United States Army in March of 1986, was the final nail in the coffin of my feelings towards the Vietnam War. And that's, why I expressed my opinions about that. I was very verbal about my feelings about Vietnam and mostly it was by what I saw on TV and my parents. At this time, Lyndon Johnson was our president, and I did not agree with him, sending more troops to Vietnam to be killed, and slaughtered. I did not sign anything that was Anti-war. (Subjects: Vietnam) My younger brother was in the army at the time and I did not want anything to affect his career. And I didn't blame the young men who went to Canada to stay out of the service because it wasn't a war defending our country it was a war, we should not have been involved in in the first place my opinion. War, my thoughts and opinions change from rather conservative to far more liberal. I felt the Vietnam War was a war, fought by young men and women who came from poor families because if you had money or influence, there was a way to get out of it, ie Trump. Most of my friends were pro-Vietnam and I was one of the few that was anti, and sometimes I just had to keep my mouth shut, I did voice it when I thought it was appropriate.(Subjects: Assassination ) Do you remember where you were when you heard about the assassinations of the prominent figure John F.Kennedy?(Subjects: Assassination) Yes I do, I was teaching school Kalispell, and it was lunch hour, and at that time, schools did not have school secretaries, and the phone kept ringing. and ringing and ringing in the office, and I got sick and tired of listening to it ring so I left my classroom, and went down to answer it, and it was the police and they said John F Kennedy had been shot at that time we had we did not know if he was dead or alive. Once we found out that he had died. Everybody was very sad. He was a beloved president by most people. And it just kind of made us sick to think something like this could happen in our country. That evening, when I watched, Walter Cronkite, and he announced that, indeed,Kennedy had died as a result of an assassination. He broke into tears, first time I've ever seen this happen with the National Broadcasting broadcast. At the time, the country felt insecure as we did not know what was going to happen after JFK had died.(Subjects: Assassination) Do you remember where you, you were, and when you heard about the assassination of Martin Luther King, Jr.(Subjects: Assassination) I don't really remember where I was, but I remember it very clearly. And it's terrible, as this may sound bad, I thought, another white person was guilty of the assassination. As a result of Martin Luther King's assassination, I was fearful of a lot of riots taking place in various cities in our country, and I knew that was not what he wanted because he believed in peaceful tactics. When I lived in Georgia he was a man that everyone knew. He stood up for what he believed in and was an inspiration to me. Although I would never share the same struggles as him, it helped me push the boundaries for women's equality.(Subjects: Assassination) do you remember where you were and when you heard about the assassination of Robert F Kennedy?(Subjects: Assassination) Yes, I do. I was sitting with my grandparents at that time, and I was just getting up in the morning, and I could hear the TV on in the living room, and I thought I was kind of dreaming that they were talking about John Kennedy and finding it dawned on me that they were saying, Robert Kennedy and I came out and watched the whole thing on TV. We got to see this on TV, pretty much, as it happened. This was months after Martin Luther King Jr. had gotten shot and it just felt weird how so many prominent figures were dying in such a short amount of time. There was a lot of uncertainty within the country and I was one of those people. Not sure what was going to happen but as long as my family and friends were safe that is what mattered to me at the time.(Subjects: Assassination) How did these three major events impact the national mood during the nineteen sixties?(Subjects: Assassination) I think it has made us more aware that we're not as safe as we think we are in this country, and that a lot of bad things can happen. I think up to this point I just thought I was in America and everything was okay. And we're all going to be just fine. And I realized that was not true at that particular time, and a lot of people did too. Especially with what was happening in Vietnam and the Cold War(Subjects: Communism) What were your personal views on communism during the nineteen sixties, and did the Cold War affect the daily life of where you lived in the sixties?(Subjects: Communism) Communism was something to be very fearful of you were always afraid that the communists were going to come and bomb us. People built bomb shelters, and they bought food to have in the bomb shelters. I remember, at school, we took drills on what to do in case we were bombed and so we kind of lived in fear. We were always, this was always on the back of our minds, you suppose they might do this to us it we were fearful of what could happen during the Cold War.(Subjects: Communism) Did you ever think you had Communists around you?(Subjects: Communism) Funny that you ask that, there was always the idea that someone around could indeed be Communist. I did not believe that at least where I was living because once I moved back to the small town of Coeur d'Alene Idaho, there would be no threats of communists in my area. So it was never really something that I deeply thought about even though the news would try and make you skeptical.(Subjects: Communism) The Cuban Missile Crisis was a grave threat. Were you fearful, or were others around you fearful of an attack? What were your opinions on it?(Subjects: Communism) Yes, I was fearful because none of us were aware that Russia was putting missiles in Cuba and when we found out, everybody thought, boy, this is it this is the big one, they're going to get us. We all kind of just had a lot of faith that Kennedy would be diplomatic enough to hopefully get us out of this mess. Here again, it made us all realize that we weren't as safe as we thought we were if this could happen right off of our shores, what was really going to keep us safe? It made us realize that we were not as isolated and insulated as we thought. This has happened in other parts of the world but it could happen here.(Subjects: Space) What was your view on the space race and the moon landing in 1969?(Subjects: Space) Well, I really wasn't aware of the space race at first, until, of course, the Russians put somebody in orbit, and John Kennedy said in one of his addresses that this was going to be a focus of his and I could still remember when they blasted off to go into space and when they landed on the moon. I could remember where I was, my family and I were hiking at Rainier National Park, and we had a transistor radio with us. It was so important, we wanted to hear all about the landing. We sat down on a rock and listened to the broadcast about the landing on the moon. And the whole time, I was thinking to myself, What if they can't get them off the moon? What are they going to do? I guess they just do what they want if they could get them off that was the end of them. They weren't going to get back home. Most people watched on their televisions but it was during the summertime so my family and I were on a trip. I was able to watch the landing later that evening on TV. What a proud moment got all Americans. It was an exciting time for America. Kind of got our minds off of war. We started to really appreciate the sciences and how important science is in education for our students that we still had, there were some things that we could do that other countries could not do.(Subjects: Television) What role did television or the radio play in shaping your opinions and what kind of television shows Did you listen to at the time?(Subjects: Telvision) People communicated and stayed in form by doing a lot of reading. We had people take a lot of magazines that they read. They read the Daily newspaper thoroughly and watched the nightly news, which started out at 15 minutes and actually went to half an hour. I think TV news came to reality when we started having it be up to an hour a night. Up until then, I always got my news when I went to the movie, and we saw the news in the first part of the movie called the newsreel. And what's TV came into my life. I started to realize how, what was going on in the world, affected my life. I realized exactly how small I really was when I started to realize about all these different places in the world when they came into my living group. Up until then, I'd always read about them in books, but once I saw them on TV, I just realized that I'm not all as important as I thought I was, and that I'm part of a whole for the first time in life, I started to realize I'm part of the whole thing called humanity, and that's true. Was there any shows you enjoyed?(Subjects: Television) I watched the Billies and Mayberry, I also got a big chuckle out of laughing I think maybe that might have been my favorite show of the 60s and the Smothers Brothers show. Star Trek just came out and was something that we had not seen before. It was exciting and interesting to watch. (Subjects: Sports) What major sporting events and stars do you remember in the 1960s?(Subjects: Sports) At that time, we knew who all the baseball players were. It wasn't like that was kind of football back then, it was baseball. I remember when Mickey Mantle played his 2000th game. I remember who hit what seemed like year after year. The Yankees were always in the World Series. But we really knew what was going on in the World Series. That was the big sport back then like football is today. It was baseball back then, and then later in the 60s, boxing, because of Cassius Clay, who later became Muhammad Ali. Friday night boxing was on TV every Friday night, of course, and everybody watched it, perhaps, Blue Ribbon sponsored it I can remember that. Basketball was upcoming but not many people were able to watch. I always heard of the great Wilt Chamberlain or Bill Russell and the Celtics winning every season. So boxing at baseball were big sports and locally basketball.(Subjects: Civil, Rights) What was your opinion on Muhammad Ali being so vocal on civil rights and the Vietnam War? At first, I was kind of hesitant about his feelings, because I thought it was a big, big blowhard. But then I later realized he he promoted himself very well. I remember seeing him on TV, you know, talking about he was always the greatest. I'm the greatest. And I guess maybe he was one of the greatest boxers ever. He told us he was, and we believed it. And as far as his me wanting to stay out of the war, I was anti-war. and I was behind him 100%. He did not care about the consequences. He was very vocal and was willing to go to jail. Just to have his opinion heard. He believed in civil disobedience.(Subjects: Religion) Was there a clear separation between church and state, unlike now?(Subjects: Religion) Yes, in the 1960s there was a clear distinction between church and state. In fact, in 1963 there was a law that was passed that local governments could not require the Lord's prayer in school or any Bible readings. Up until then, teachers would read through the Bible every day. And there weren't the big churches that tried to have political influence like today, most of the churches were traditional and stuck to religious topics, and they did not bring politics into their servants.(Subjects: Transportation) What were some of the biggest differences in daily life like transportation compared to today?(Subjects: Transportation) Well, in transportation, pretty much it was a car or Greyhound bus. If you went on an airplane, that was really a big deal. people did fly that often. The first time I flew, was when I was 25, to Japan. And when they did fly out of their plate you dressed up and looked very nice. You do that was just expected. Like today we get on in our pajamas that just did not happen in the 1960s.(Subjects: Entertainment) What was entertainment like compared to today?(Subjects: Entertainment) Back in the sixties, entertainment was going to the movies. we did not have these big concerts like they have nowadays where I live, but maybe in the big cities they did. you might the movies might go to dances. uh, entertainment was playing cards with your neighbors, playing cards with your friends. Not like today where everything is just it fast gear, people spend more time communicating with each other, and visiting I think they do nowadays.(Subjects: Life) Looking back, what do you think was the most important or transformative moment of the 1960s for you personally?(Subjects: Life) Yeah, probably teaching overseas, really, that changed my attitude on a lot of things. Probably that looking to see how other cultures navigated life and learning about different cultures really was probably one of the biggest events in my life in the 60s. Moving from a small mining town to teaching abroad widened and changed my perspective on life. For example, I did not know Judaism was a thing until I was exposed to it.(Subjects: Life) Do you think the 1960s are often romanticized today? Or do you believe the current understanding of the era reflects its actual reality in this way?(Subjects: Life) I think it was romanticized. I think people think of the 60s young people. We all were out there smoking pot joints and doing drugs and going to concerts, kind of not working and doing as we pleased. In actuality, that was not the way things were. It's when I think we first started to see a real split in our country because people felt they could have voiced their opinions without being labeled as anti-patriotic or whatever. The Vietnam War, that's kind of started the dividing of our country. It was different, that they got out of their social norms to do what they wanted. to do with their life they did feel that they had to be buried, they had to have children, or whatever they could do what they wanted to do. positive about the 60s was the Civil Rights Movement, and giving the minorities in our country, The hope that they will be treated fairly, and the same as anybody else that lives in the country.(Subjects: Life) Are there any other events that left a mark on you or that you found interesting in the 60s?(Subjects: Advice) In the 60s, yes, one was, it was the first mass shooting in the 60s, where 16 people were killed when an individual got in a tower at the University of Texas, it killed people on campus. And then that's when I first real, another time that I realized that people aren't as safe as we think we are. And of course, the Manson murders, I'll tell you, that was really something you thought, Oh, my goodness, they went in and killed all these people, and there again. It was all blamed on pot, drugs, and whatnot, which ended up being true. Another thing that I thought was interesting in the 1960s was the start of superheroes, like Batman on TV. These were the first times we saw these kinds of shows on TV. Another thing was, of course, the Cuban Missile Crisis, which we talked about a little bit earlier, and the Bay of Pigs, where we sent Cubans down to attack Cuba. It did not end well. Also, the Six-Day War was fought and won by Israeli, Israel against Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. And we've had our first black present Marshal. That's it is that it is okay. Okay, everybody was talking, towards the end decision just restarted. No, yeah, yeah, you're good. And of course, the book everybody loved could wait to get their hands on. In the late 1960s, was The Godfather, which I read many times. When the Mustang came on the market, everybody wanted to have one, and I was really disappointed because I bought a Corvair. And I thought, Oh darn, I wish I would have waited and gotten a Mustang.(Subjects: Advice) If you could offer one piece of advice to younger generations based on your experience of the 1960s what would it be(Subjects: Advice) From my experience in the 1960s, I would advise young people, first of all, to communicate with each other. The number way, way to get to know someone is to communicate with them, and not through technology, person to person, visiting with them, and also to realize to listen to different opinions. It's amazing how I've changed my way of thinking by listening to what other people have to say and doing some thinking after I listen to what they have to say. this may seem like a very simple thing to say, but I really feel think about how you would feel if someone said something hurtful to you. the most important word in our vocabulary is kindness. If we are kind to people, I don't think we'll regret anything we've done if we are tied to them and take care of them. Remember, we're one human race. I need that. That. and always be proud of standing up for what you believe. Don't let people run over the top of you and say, though, no I'm right. Stand up for what you think and what you believe.(Subjects: Advice)

John Kittredge Click to filter

*Brief Exchange about Consent* How did you feel about the 1960's? When you look back now what sort of things come to mind? Well there was a lot going on, a lot of conflict. The Vietnam War had grown significantly. The resnetnment the Protests against it. Socially, people had made the discintion between War and Peace. Peace at home and soldiers at war. It was a crazy time. I had been partying and doing a lot of crazy stuff.(Subjects: Vietnam, The Military) Do you still see it like this? I know in history its seen as a crazy time, but personally at the time you saw it the same way? I don't see I-- I think life sometimes evolved based on the cirumstances, the events. The war, The Vietnam War did not end until 1975. And a lot of people had died protesting the war. A lot of colleges, things like that. Young people like myself, I joined the military volunentarily but there was a lot more people who were afraid of war. They did not want to participate in it. And did not believe in that particular war for sure. It was just a different time. Very different than WW2 or the Korean war. Back then our country itself was more behind it. Vietnam was awful. Even guys like me that were coming home much after the war still got spit on and called "baby killers" and things like that. That resentment, that anger. The 60's were fun though, none of the technoligies we have now were avaliable. No cellphones or anything like that at our level. Technology was much different in those days I rode a bike and delivered newspapers door to door and you don't really do that anymore.(Subjects: Vietnam, General) Yeah. What else do you feel like is different? Other than just cultural changes? I would say the food has changed. The concept of chains of places, for example I worked at the thirteenth Mcdonalds in the country- in Los Angeles. That chain was new. A hamburger was 29 cents.(Subjects: Cultural) Oh, wow. I guess another thing just kind of a left turn on you, it is not as deep neccesarily as the other questions but what was the social life like back then? What was dating like? Is it different than it would be today? So much of that depended on how old you were. And whether or not you had a car. We had public transportation, we had busses but it was not really considered a way to date somebody. It was not like "Hey, I will pick you up and we will take the buss into town". (Laughter)(Subjects: Social, Cultural) Yeah I get that (Laughter). In the city you learned to ride your bike or you drove. So, really dating didn't start as much until you were actually able to drive. Once you were 16 then you could get a license. If somebody was good enough to lend you their car then you could go out. Very structured though. Very formal. But once you go to college its much different. I was underage then, in 1969 8th grade. So my teen years, my crazier years bled into the 70's.(Subjects: Social) Ok, and do you feel like the cultures of the 60's and 70's were similar? Or did they change at all? Could you repeat that please? Oh, I am sorry, I said was the culture of the 60's or 70's different. Anything like that? Well, One of the things I see is the changes to music and the general cultural patterns. The music that we'd listen to, the instruaments. the styles very very different. The difference in the genres between then and now are astounding. There was Elvis in the 50's and a lot of other artists really built on that style. He was often imitated, seldom duplicated. The music groups(in the 70's) were more about harmonies and singing abilities as opposed to mass produced music like we see today. There is a lot of excpectation that it is all electronic. Back then it was all actual live music, played by musicans. We had those kinds of things and it reflected our culture and thoughts. That was our culture. That remains the same. The music that you hear today is a reflection of today, the music you heard than was a reflection of those days. They were songs about peace and against war.(Subjects: Social, Cultural) Sorry to interupt. But do you feel some of that had to do with scars from Vietnam from the 1960's? Oh yeah. Most of the Major Music trends from that period had to do with that war. Absolutely. So many songs and groups that came out of that era were. The Doors for example, Creedence Clear Water Revival was a big one, Skynrd(Lynrd Skynrd). Southern rock kind of bands, Marshall Tucker. Bob Seager guys that went back all the bands from that era. I would say Crosby Stills and Nash was there too- they had all kind of done their own things as independent as well. I would say they had the most to say about that. Neil Young was another Anti-War person. He was against the protests. You know it's the 60's Martin Luther King was conducting march cause segragation was an issue. Your Aunt Marie was pulled out of school because mom didn't want her attending an integrated school things like that. It was a black and white issue. We knew it. When we were growing up there was a lot of conflict. Racial conflict. That is another underlying thing, it was more prevalant in the South of the United States than California(where he lived at the time). Did not really have as much impact. Marie and I didn't know any of that we were not hateful, we just understood they were different colors than us. It was not a dislike or a hate, we just accepted that they were different.(Subjects: Cultural, Music) Did it feel elevated in LA? I thought it was pretty cool. They said you could go to the beach in the morning, go to Disneyland in the afternoon, and got to the mountains at night, all on one tank of gas.(Subjects: Social, Cultural) Yeah, I guess that makes sense. A little bit more of what I was getting at was- did you notice any of the social changes at the time? Desegragation that sort of thing? Did it mean anything to you at the time? Did you care? Not Care? I didn't notice it at the time, I think I was still too young to really understand or realize what it was. We used to make the comment that my dad wanted to be the last white guy out of Reseda. (This) because homes were selling that was the trend in those days. If a black family moved in, that whole street was up for sale. White people would move out and black people would move in. We saw with our neighborhood thats why dad wanted to be the last white guy in LA we kept thinking that they would come back, that white people would move back in and they just never did. They would move South they would move to Orange County, that was a big move in those days. But there was not as much problems between the other races- a lot of Mexican people, Spanish people around. It was not really a problem. By in large the growunps did more, we were kids. The grownups had jobs paying money to feed their families it became more about class(sophfistication). It did not matter if you were a white drunk driver or a black drunk drive, you were a drunk driver. But I don't really remember a lot of hatred.(Subjects: Racial Issues) Sorry, I did not catch that last part could you repeat it? Yeah, I don't think people really looked at it that way with that kind of hatred. Not a lot of hatred- just nice people and not nice people.(Subjects: General) I was just going to ask, do you think it had to do generationaly? Perhaps your parents generation cared more? And a lot of people in your generation growing up in the 60's and 70's were more apathetic is that a safe assumption? You know, you saying that just kind of reminded me of what mom used to say. It should not matter if you are a preist or a prositute you should talk to and be nice to everybody. Dosen't matter if they are off the street or from Harvard. (If they) had been to prison, any of those kinds of things. The generation that came my age and lower was one of acceptance. I think. I don't judge people, it has to do with how they act, how they treat people. How do they feel? Are thet nice to you? Are they cordial? I had my run ins with different people growing up, but it was never about race.(Subjects: Racial Isusues, Social) I guess that makes a lot of sense having that generation be that way. My follow up to that would be, did you expirence a lot of different cultures in the military?People from all over the country? Not neccsarily racially. I saw a different type of people from different parts of the country. And that is the part that I always noticied. There was a culture in the South, or if you were the Midwest, things like that. They were different based on where they came from. Not so much their color, but that played some part of it. A lot of Southern People were very predujuice. Both black and white. So, there is always a way to start a relationship where when a white guy meets a black guy from California, he is thinking of him as a black guy from his culture. He may treat him or talk to him that way. "Boy whatcha doin" stuff like that. It was more of that, they felt like they had a right to treat people some type of way. (This) because of where they had come from. And what the military teaches you is- Green. Nobody is another color once you put that uniform on. And that's kind of how you had to go about it, versus when they are coming from different cultures they are trying to parade that. "Hey I'm a big strong country boy". My budy from Maine he just wanted to hunt,fish, he was an outdoorsman who could survive on a survival trip and put on weight!(Laughter) They came back and measured him, because bottom line was they(the Army) had located us about 300 yards from where we lived. We came back and had pizza and beer. That was the idea. Him and I are still close, we went to each other's weddings. I called him just last week.(Subjects: Racial Issues, Social) That is, I think something to be admired about the military- the succesful mix of cultres to try to accomplish what the mission is. Yeah, the military does not stand for crap like that. They'll be prejuidce against slackers. Against the guy with the tiny heart, the guy who can't clean his weapon. In fact, I think in today's world it is an advantage to have those different angles, those different cultures. When I made friends with people from different parts of the world, I learned a lot. I just learned things I never would have learned, that I never would've been exposed to. You can eat catfish, I didn't even know that was a thing. I did not start riding bikes(motorcycles) until a friend in the service let me borrow his. I was 19.. maybe about 22 years old I guess. Guy lent me his bike and I had ridden dirt bikes but he let me borrow it. He was a Southern guy but you know he says "you can have it yourself! Take it back out!" It was very welcoming. The other shock of the military was just how many guys died. That is the other side of it. Not from war, neccesarily- from the stres of being in the military. It gets to some guys. A guy I knew well, my roomate, died. Took his own life. Got some bad news from home and took his own life. I don't know how we could have stopped that. We never really realized it was that bad. But I knew other guys that used drugs and died from that. Man he was tough but, he died .(Subjects: Military, Racial Issues) I was going to say, I understand that does happen to a lot of people in the service. I am not trying to draw any conclusions. Do you think especially during your era that there were some allienated soldiers, and from the uncoventional disrespect they had gotten during Vietnam and the years following? Yeah. War in general is a horrible event. And everyone knows it. Everybody suffers, everybody is damaged. You come home damaged. What you've seen, what you've heard, what you've learned. To fight a war, the results are horrible. Some are more effected, god forbid you watch somebody get hurt. Watch somebody get shot or otherwise, it is traumatic. War has the effect of guys getting shot at and they suddenly realize how vunerable they are. The become ectoplasm. They crawl in a foxhole. They get into a gunfight its an ism. You think they've got your back, cause in the military they always have your back. That's your creed. Never let your teamates down. Go unprepared. If a guy's frozen thinking "I am just going to die" and then his team gets hurt. There is a lot of that kind of stuff.(Subjects: Vietnam, Military) Yeah I get that. sorry little bit of a left turn on you, getting away from the military stuff if that's alright. What were the politics like in the country at the time. I have heard it was a pretty crazy time, you being in the service but even earlier- as a high school student how did you feel about bif figures, if I asked you 50 years ago how you feel about say Kennedy or Nixon? Well, they were powerful guys, true leaders. Any guy like that is really going to enjoy power. So, pretty much from Kennedy on a lot of those guys were untrustworthy, it was particularly traumatic when Richard Nixon was implicated because while we knew everyone was doing it he got caught. I think one of the things that impacted me was Bobby Kennedy's assination. I remember where I was when John Kennedy his brother was shot. It was terrible, a total diaster. The thing about Bobby was he was coming up and someone said "no you can't be President an....and he was killed. And that was one of the more impactful ones. Nixon they wanted to impeach. The other thing that was a conflict at the time was Nixon and the government were not able to tell what happened to comrades. A large group that I ama still a part of had to do with POW(Prisoners of war) and MIA(Missing in Action). The number has dwindled over time as DNA testing has progressed, testing and verfication-you get families that so you can identify those you find. "Oh, ok this was Michael Harris we tested his blood or DNA and it matches his" so the number(of missing) has gone doen. But it is still around 200 guys. So when they do the memorials at the ball, there is one in DC and one in Philadelphia, they do what is called a low crawl when they announce the guys who are still missing. So they"ll say "Sargent Cameron Honovich US Navy, still missing." And "John Kittredge US Army still missing," very powerful stuff. And I saw it one time where they were at 1800 soldiers and now its 200, but there is still a lot of guys missing.(Subjects: Cultural, General) Would you say there are a lot of similarities between say, you being a young man in the 60's in the service, and a young man who grew up today in the Afganistan or Iraq era? You know, I don't know a lot of people that were active in that, in fact just one. That is really my kids' age. That is a whole other generation. I think the soldiers now are better armed, better trained, they are more accepted at home, and there are resources for them to recover later on. But still you don't do soldering for yourself, it is not a get rich plan. It has to do with pride in your country. To do something for your nation's defense. But soldiers in those events have always been proud of it. They are doing it for the love of their country. And I feel bad because they are still not well taken care of, but they are better received. They are heroes when they get back. Soldiers from my generation, from the Vietnam era were considered bad people. They weren't given a whole lot of oppurtunities, unless they met up with other soldiers. Bikers for example. A lot of those came from groups of soldiers. They had no other place to go. They would band together. That is why you will find that a lot of motorcycle guys are retired veterans. That is their way of bonding. They haven't got skills, so they would roam and do things for money.(Subjects: Military) Do you think that started with the Vietnam era? Well it actually dates back further. One of the earliest clubs was the Blue Comets. I wanna say they go back to the 30's. There was them and maybe more. Harley(Davidson) started in 1947. They made motorcycles for both military and civlian life. A lot of the military used them. They also used sidecars, things like that. The military did, for sending messengers- things like that. I always said that would've been a good career, I always liked the thrill of being chased (laughs).(Subjects: Cultural, Social) (Laughing) Fair enough. I certainly liked riding the motorcycles, that would have been something I was interested in doing in that time period. That kind of predates me, but it was a way to do things when you get out. Join a club, help you find some work. Go ride motorcycles, it became a passion. Of course those clubs grew from a genre of people with no sense of direction, no purpose, veterans. And those are some of the biggest rides. I have been on rides where they do what's called Rolling Thunder. That is a veterans thing, it is near the wall in DC. And that has had over a million participants through the years. They used to meet up at the Pentagon, it has a ton of extra parking. They have to do that. They have to have joining parking lots. So it got pretty crazy. And the vast majority of them, it was not specifically a military thing, were veterans. But that is where it came from. That is a powerful group. It has since become disjointed. Like all things, the leadership has started to dwindle. Absloute power creates absolute.... I don't know.(Subjects: Military, Cultural) Absolute power corrupts aboslutely? Something like that? Yeah I guess. What else youi got? That is just about it I think.

Beverly Lousignont Click to filter

So this is Blake Wooderson. I'm speaking to Beverly Lousignont. The date is September 21 2024 Okay, let's get into it. So let's just do some basic questions. Where were you born? I was born in The Dalles [Oregon]. And I lived in Tygh Valley [Oregon]. Can you tell me what the family dynamic was like?(Subjects: Family) Yeah, well, being the second to the oldest, the oldest girl of seven, you know, we were assigned daily chores. We all had chores. If you were old enough to walk, you know, you had daily chores, yeah. And dad was at work or hunting or fishing, you know, to provide for the family, and mom was a stay at home.(Subjects: Family) So you have six siblings in total?(Subjects: Family) Yes, six siblings.(Subjects: Family) So do you think it was a little bit like difficult growing up in such a big family? Was there any challenges?(Subjects: Family) No.(Subjects: Family) So it was all pretty fine?(Subjects: Family) Yeah, I mean, that's, you know, our parents were good parents and dad was a good provider. They provided basic essentials, they were reliable. But you know, with a family of seven, money was tight. But you know since dad hunted and fished, we always had plenty to eat, and mom was a good cook.(Subjects: Family) Right. Okay, let's switch up the questions a little bit. So the next question I'd like to ask is, what were you doing when you were, like in your teens, like your later teens?(Subjects: Childhood) Drinking beer. In school. I had different jobs. I ironed for people, I babysat, and worked at the county fair.(Subjects: Childhood) Oh wow. It sounds like you did a lot of work. Where did you work? Was it in Tygh Valley or somewhere else? After I graduated in 70', I went to work in The Dalles at a nursing home.(Subjects: Career) How long did you work there?(Subjects: Career) I worked there, probably 3 years.(Subjects: Career) Did you like working there?(Subjects: Career) Yeah, I mean it was fine. It was a good work site, and I had friends there. So, you know, it was, it was easy, yeah, you know, it was kind of hard working with older people, because, you know, some of them had died during the time I was there.(Subjects: Career) That must have been really difficult.(Subjects: Career) It was, emotionally. And then I got a job at an insurance and real estate company, Kargl, Elwood, and Geiger(Subjects: Career) Oh really, And then did you go to college?(Subjects: School) Well, I moved when I got married and moved to Le Grande [Oregon].(Subjects: School) What did you study there?(Subjects: School) Pre-Law.(Subjects: School) Oh, that's really interesting. And then did you do anything with pre-law?(Subjects: School) No. I mean, I worked for a couple government programs that worked with seniors and disabled. And then in 76' I got a job at Union Pacific Railroad.(Subjects: School) When did you start working for CPS [Certified Personnel Service] or ODOT, or what you're doing right now?(Subjects: Career) In 82'.(Subjects: Career) Oh really, so you've been doing that for awhile?(Subjects: Career) In 92' the railroad downsized their clerical division, then I was hired by the gal who owns Certified Personnel and became the manager. And in 70' or no, I'm sorry. I'm forgetting my years. In 94' I had grown CPS where I owned 40% of it because she didn't really, I mean CPS was just a small company. They were just doing clerical and when I started working, I expanded it to work with construction sites and do labor stuff.(Subjects: Career) Oh wow. Sounds like you did a lot in that short time.(Subjects: Career) Yes. And so she says, "Well, I can't continue this relationship where as you grow the company, you become owner, because you're going to end up owning it all." So she says, "I'll sell it to you." And so I bought her out for $40,000 and now we gross about 7 million a year.(Subjects: Career) Yeah, you really grew the company a lot. Was that a lot of hard work?(Subjects: Career) Well, it was in the sense that you had to watch the market trends, right? And that's when we expanded and started doing flagging for ODOT. And then we also did work for wildland fires.(Subjects: Career) So you really did a variety of expansion on the company.(Subjects: Career) Yeah, it's like, we had to expand our services and having labor pool like we did. We even did derailments for Union Pacific Railroad when they had derailments and they had goods on the ground, we would hire laborers to go out and help clean up the stuff that had to be done by hand.(Subjects: Career) It's a lot of hands on work, I'm guessing.(Subjects: Career) Yeah. I mean, then trying to hire people, you know day labor stuff really was pretty easy because there was people available who were either on unemployment or had some kind of disability to come out and do short jobs. And we paid well. You know, that was the key to a lot of it. We paid more than minimum wage.(Subjects: Career) You guys have night workers too? Is that a little harder to find people to work for?(Subjects: Career) For night work, no. Not really.(Subjects: Career) So they're all pretty available?(Subjects: Career) I mean, you did what you could because we had a good reputation and people liked working for us. If there was travel, we, you know, reimbursed them for mileage and travel, and sometimes we even provided rides if that was necessary.(Subjects: Career) Oh really. It sounds like you do a lot for your workers.(Subjects: Career) Yep. And we had offices in Baker, La Grande, Hermiston, and Redmond.(Subjects: Career) That's a lot of locations. Was it only one location when you started?(Subjects: Career) Yes.(Subjects: Career) It's very interesting how you grew the small company into a multi million dollar company.(Subjects: Career) Yeah, I mean it was really pretty easy to do because of having prime contractors. Yeah, seven, you know, Union Pacific Railroad, ODOT. We got in with some really good companies that needed the services that we provided.(Subjects: Career) That's all very interesting stuff that you have to talk about. Okay, I think let's switch up again on the questions. So, going back to when you were younger, I assumed you watched TV shows. I was just wondering, do you remember what you were watching at the time?(Subjects: Media) Wow, I, well it was in the mornings when we were cleaning house, doing dishes, breakfast. You know, mom had TV on and she was watching soap operas and so as soon as our chores were done, we were basically kicked out of the house. Not literally, but you know, we were free to go. And we would go see our friends and go to Tygh Creek and fish and swim or just hang out. We were outside a lot and then we would return home for dinner.(Subjects: Media) Oh, really?(Subjects: Media) Yeah, but we were always in Tygh Valley with friends, so if our parents needed to check up on us, it was really simple to do because it was a lot smaller town so you didn't really do as much. And then in the evenings, after we had dinner and did the dishes and took our baths, you know there was, what was that space show?(Subjects: Media) Was it Star Trek?(Subjects: Media) No, it was way before then. I can't remember the name of it. Or gunsmoke, or some kind of family show.(Subjects: Media) So you guys watched a lot of western shows?(Subjects: Media) Yes western and whatever was on TV. And we didn't watch a lot of TV, I don't think more than maybe an hour or two.(Subjects: Media) Oh really. You definitely watched less TV than I do.(Subjects: Media) Yes, very much.(Subjects: Media) So, did you ever watch like Gilligan's Island or The Brady Bunch?(Subjects: Media) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Those are pretty good shows. I like watching those ones. I mean, they were like family shows where, you know, subject matter was pretty interesting.(Subjects: Media) Did you see like any connection to real world events, or like see it on TV?(Subjects: Media) Very little news. There was like when JFK was running for president, we did go to The Dalles and watched his debate.(Subjects: Media) Oh wow. Was it not televised?(Subjects: Media) No. In person. It was really cool.(Subjects: Media) How long was the rally or whatever it was?(Subjects: Media) It was like a town hall. You know, where he was at one of the middle schools there. I think it was The Dalles Middle School and there was lots of people.(Subjects: Media) Well, that must have been really exciting to see a major event.(Subjects: Media) It really was. He was a good speaker. But you know, as far as news and stuff like that, I mean, you had Jane Fonda who had a pretty big hit. "These boots are made for walking", yeah, and so when she [Jane Fonda] began her rally against Vietnam, it really didn't sit well because it just felt like it was propaganda. She getting her name out there to talk against the war.(Subjects: Vietnam War) That's really interesting because since the Vietnam War was kind of a controversial topic at the time, how did you feel about it?(Subjects: Vietnam War) Well, my brother was there and some people that I had gone to school with, so it was, it was more support for them because they were there.(Subjects: Vietnam War) So were you scared for them?(Subjects: Vietnam War) I mean, not really knowing, you know the schematics of the death. Roy [oldest sibling] was on the navy ship. So he wasn't on the ground and in the fighting, combat of guns and bombs and stuff like that. And he wrote home pretty often. You know, it wasn't scary in that respect because him writing home was the only communication that we had about what was going on.(Subjects: Vietnam War) That's weird that it was so secretive and not mentioned in the public.(Subjects: Vietnam War) Well, it's probably was on the news, but like I said, that wasn't a part of our daily viewing.(Subjects: Vietnam War) How old were you when Roy enlisted?(Subjects: Vietnam War) I would have been 16 and he was 18.(Subjects: Vietnam War) How did Roy feel about going into the war?(Subjects: Vietnam War) I don't know if he ever really expressed it other than, I mean, it was a mandatory thing, and you had to go. You have to support your country and everything. And we had uncles, our dad's brothers. There was four of them that was in the military, most of them were in the Air Force.(Subjects: Vietnam War) So they were flying planes and everything?(Subjects: Vietnam War) Yes.(Subjects: Vietnam War) Were they doing that over in Vietnam or was that in previous wars?(Subjects: Vietnam War) I don't know if they were involved in Vietnam. I know that, oh I don't know. I'm thinking that maybe WW2. So just having military relative, it was, it wasn't controversial as being negative.(Subjects: Vietnam War) Right. Did you ever receive any letters from Roy or your other family members?(Subjects: Vietnam War) Mom got the letters. It was to the family. I know when I graduated, Roy sent me a graduation gift, and it was a, I think it was a Seiko watch and it was orange, and I still have it.(Subjects: Vietnam War) That's really nice of him.(Subjects: Vietnam War) And then when he got out, he was in San Diego for a while and I went down to see him and went to an Elton John concert.(Subjects: Vietnam War) That sounds fun. Who was your favorite band to listen to?(Subjects: Media) Probably the Beach Boys.(Subjects: Media) Did you go see them in concert too?(Subjects: Media) No. That wasn't something I did.(Subjects: Media) So you didn't go to many concerts then?(Subjects: Media) Yeah. I went with Lois [Third oldest sibling] a few times in Portland [Oregon]. Can't remember who it was. We went to a lot of comedy shows.(Subjects: Media) Do you remember who you saw?(Subjects: Media) Yes, but I can't remember his name. He's the one that would smash that watermelon.(Subjects: Media) Oh, I know who you're talking about but I can't remember his name either.(Subjects: Media) It'll come to me. But when he was just starting out, he was in Portland a lot and we went down there to see him. And we even went to Darcelle.(Subjects: Media) Oh. Who's that?(Subjects: Media) She was the transvestite or what do you call them? The ones that where men dress up like women.(Subjects: Media) Drag Queens?(Subjects: Media) Drag Queens. Well, you know, with Lois, you never know what you were gonna get.(Subjects: Media) Was Lois kind of the wild child then?(Subjects: Family) She was adventurous. She liked doing a lot of different things.(Subjects: Family) Do you remember what she was doing at the time?(Subjects: Family) She was working. Well, she was an escort. Didn't expect that could you?(Subjects: Family) Nope. I did not.(Subjects: Family) I never told you, maybe you didn't know.(Subjects: Family) I don't know. I might have heard something but I can't remember. I probably would have remembered that, so I probably wasn't told. So, do you remember how old she was when she started being an escort?(Subjects: Family) It was before she married John [2nd husband]. But it was like three or four years I would think. She did it enough for an income.(Subjects: Family) Do you know if she liked doing it? Was it just for the money?(Subjects: Family) Both.(Subjects: Family) Well, yeah, you get the best of both worlds.(Subjects: Family) She was a higher end one.(Subjects: Family) Really? Do you know how many girls she worked with?(Subjects: Family) No. She had regular clients and that's how she met her second husband [John](Subjects: Family) That's really interesting. Who would have thought. Would you say you were more conservative than Lois?(Subjects: Family) Oh yes because I was married to John [not Lois's husband].(Subjects: Family) Okay, I think we should switch up the questions again. Let's talk about the Civil Rights Movement and what was going on. Do you remember anything going on? Was it mentioned in your house growing up?(Subjects: CRM) I mean, yes. You saw all these people burning and crying, you know, it was just so unsettling to see how they could be disruptive to a community. It was in Portland and other places that we never were around directly. It was more prevalent to see it like in big cities.(Subjects: CRM) Like the protests going on in Portland?(Subjects: CRM) Just the burning of cars and the disrespect to the police and public property.(Subjects: CRM) Did you ever go over to Portland and see the aftermath?(Subjects: CRM) No, you just heard about it. Just saw it on TV a little bit, kind of just had no desire to be around that kind of stuff.(Subjects: CRM) Right. It's kind of scary when there's chaos going on.(Subjects: CRM) Yes and the chaos did not help influence the powers to be to get away from that to stop the war.(Subjects: CRM) Did you see any type of segregation growing up or any conflicts going on?(Subjects: CRM) No. Our dad was from Missouri and where they grew up with blacks. I don't know if there was like for them [African Americans]. And it was just not that it influenced my thinking. It was just you knew that your dad and your uncle didn't have anything nice to say about them. They were like second class people. We didn't have to deal with it. I mean, we had Indians, the Warm Springs Indians in Tygh Valley, but they were a part of the community. So it wasn't like whites and browns.(Subjects: CRM) Since it's a smaller community, you kind of have to be a little closer together I would imagine. I would say living in a smaller community has a big advantage just because you know everyone and you don't have to worry about anything bad happening.(Subjects: Community) I don't think we ever had a negro family in Tygh Valley or remember seeing them in The Dalles, but you, with the Indians, they lived there. They were old time residents of Tygh Valley. So it wasn't like they were moving in, and you had controversy of them coming to your white settlement. And we had community things. We had Friday nights. We had pinochle and the lodge, and it was a family thing. I would take desserts and you would play cards. You would have desserts. Saturday nights, there was dances at the Grange Hall, and it was a family thing. It was more inclusive than people bitching about their kids being on Facebook and not having an activity that would draw them away from it.(Subjects: Community) Right.(Subjects: Community) You know, we had parades, we had school sports. We had family picnics and fishing trips and just activities to draw you away from the TV, I guess.(Subjects: Community) So was the news on a lot on the TV?(Subjects: Media) Well, maybe before dinner but I don't remember. I don't remember much TV. Even up into my 20s when I was married. You watched special entertainment programs. There really wasn't the hype on news.(Subjects: Media) Oh, so were you listening to music or looking at magazines or any type of media?(Subjects: Media) Not really. The only time you maybe listen to music was in the car traveling.(Subjects: Media) Did you guys have like a record player or anything like that?(Subjects: Media) We did. We had a really nice pioneer entertainment center, but that wasn't something you did, switching on the TV or music.(Subjects: Media) Well, I think the interview has come to an end. Do you have any last comments or anything to add? It was a calmer peace of mind. Growing up and being a young adult, you didn't have bullying. You didn't have other influences about the clothes you wore or didn't wear. You know, we took the bus to school and sometimes maybe a friend had the parents' car for the day, hopped a ride with them. But it was a simple life. It was, you went to school to learn, and that was it. Because the media was new and it wasn't as prevalent as it is now, where you can share information from everywhere and have to deal with people judging you and everything. Yeah, and having an opinion about it, I think the only outside media stuff I remember in high school that we got to watch the last few games of the World Series. It was a simpler life Well, thank you so much Bev for doing this interview. You're welcome Blake. I'm glad I shed some light on the family history. Well, we're gonna have to talk about that later. All right, I'll talk to you later.

Geraldine Stamper Click to filter

Hi, my name is TS*, I am here today to interview my grandfather, Geraldine Stamper, My grandfather way born in 1946 would make the 60's most of his teenage years. How are you doing today Grandpa?(Subjects: introduction) I'm doing well, happy to be here and help you out.(Subjects: introduction) Amazing, I am happy to be here and learn more about your life in the early days.(Subjects: introduction) Well, I have lots of stories for ya kid.(Subjects: introduction) Amazing, well I will start out by asking, where were you born?(Subjects: childhood) I was born in Clearwater Valley Hospital in Orofino Idaho where I was raised in a 2 bedroom apartment with my sister and my mother. My Father passed at a very young age in my life due to lung cancer.(Subjects: childhood, parents) I am very sorry to hear that, so you grew up in Orofino your whole life?(Subjects: childhood) Yes, I graduated from Orofino High school and stayed here once I came back from Vietnam.(Subjects: childhood, Vietnam) How was your experience at Vietnam, how long were you there?(Subjects: Vietnam) I was only deployed once thankfully in March of 1972. I was there for about 7 months where I was a mechanic for the airborne unit. I was never on the front lines of danger but back a ways where we would have units bring their planes to us for us to fix. I was a part of a small team with a couple of other guys who I am still in contact with today. All of us were there less the 9 months and were brought back in November.(Subjects: Vietnam) That's amazing, I am very thankful for your service and am very happy that you and your team were able to make it back from that war safely. Is there anything specific about the war that you enjoy thinking back on, or what you least enjoy thinking back on?(Subjects: Vietnam) I personally try not to think about it too much and try to live my life. There was a lot of sadness in my life in those times that I wish didn't happen. I do enjoy thinking back to the first couple of years when we all came back to the US and we would meet up once a year in Vegas to spend time with each other and catch up.(Subjects: Vietnam, friends) I am very sorry to hear that and I am glad you are past thinking about what happened. I think that is very cool that you guys did that, do you still try to continue to see each other?(Subjects: friends) We have not been able to meet for about 6 or 7 years now but us old folk still try to call when we can.(Subjects: friends) That is awesome I am glad to hear it, I got one more question then we can move off from this topic if that works with you?(Subjects: war, friends) Sounds great, sorry for not having much to say about my experience there.(Subjects: war, friends) Don't worry about it I appreciate you sharing how you feel about what you can. And again very grateful for your service. The last question I had about it was how you felt about the Cold War and if this influenced you into wanting to fight in Vietnam.(Subjects: ColdWar, Vietnam) The Cold War was a very real and scary thing all over the US. I remember that a lot of my fellow soldiers had family members or themselves who had fought a part in that war and that fueled them for the Vietnam war. I personally didn't want to be deployed as well as many others but I am glad that I was able to do my part when I was there. Coming back from war gave me a different perspective on what war was, so knowing more information I felt more safe coming home and faithful that we could finish the Cold War in peace.(Subjects: ColdWar, Vietnam) I'm really glad to hear that, speaking of faith, how much did religion play a role in your life? Did you go to church?(Subjects: religion) Religion played a hugely significant role in many people's lives during this time, mine included. Church attendance was more common back then, especially in smaller towns like Orofino. I grew up going to church every Sunday, and it wasn't just a religious experience, it was also about the community that we had in our small town. Church gatherings were social events as much as they were spiritual, and many people that I knew would organize their lives around church activities like youth groups and the choir. In my family, faith was very important. We would say grace before meals and look at holidays like Christmas and Easter with religious significance. Church was a place where I found a sense of belonging, and it provided me with moral guidance. For many families, including mine, church was a cornerstone of life, especially earlier in the decade.(Subjects: religion ) That is so amazing to hear, what was it like walking into a church back then? I assume that it is worlds different than it is today.(Subjects: religion ) Oh, absolutely! Walking into a church in Orofino during the 1960s was a special experience, and it felt very different from what you'd see today. The church was very simple, but it was the heart of the community. When you walked in, the first thing you'd notice was the sound of the organ playing and all of the familiar faces of your neighbors. Everyone knew each other, so there was always a lot of friendly conversation before the service started. Most people dressed up for church back then, men wore suits and ties, and women wore dresses most of the time with hats or gloves. It was just what you did to show respect, and it made Sunday mornings feel like an important occasion. The building itself was pretty small, with wooden panels on the wall that had seen years of use. But there was something comforting about being inside like you were part of something much bigger. The service was traditional, with a choir leading the congregation, and some of my friends singing. The sermons focused on the importance of family, hard work, and living a moral life. Since Orofino was a small town, the pastor knew everyone personally, so the messages often felt very well directed toward our community. You'd hear about local events, which made it feel like the church was truly a part of everyday life. After the service was over most people didn't rush home. They'd stay around, chatting on the church steps or making plans for Sunday dinner. It was as much about the social connections as the spiritual ones. It really felt like the church was the center of everything. Things are more relaxed now, but back then, going to church was a big part of what made our community feel connected.(Subjects: religion) Wow. It seems like church really was a huge part of your life and you can very vividly think about your experience in your church. I think it is amazing how you remember exactly what the feeling was like doing back to Sunday church in the 1960s.(Subjects: religion) It was a huge part of my life and nothing that I will never forget, I love thinking back to the time my mom and dad would hold my hand and walk me to church. Very fond memories there.(Subjects: religion) That is amazing, I am very glad to hear that part of your life. When growing a little older and being in Orofino, were there a lot of civil rights movements there? Or what was your experience like with all of the Civil Rights Movements happening around you?(Subjects: crm, movements) Orofino was and still is a very small and rugged town, so the civil rights movements felt a bit distant compared to what was happening in larger cities. We didn't see protests or marches in the streets like you would in places like the South or heard on the radio. In fact, diversity in Orofino was pretty limited, so the everyday impact of the Civil Rights Movement was not doing much to affect our town. Most of what we knew came from radio and newspapers, and even that was filtered through the lens of a small community. But even in a place like Orofino, you could feel some type of shift happening. People were talking about it more. You'd hear about Martin Luther King Jr. or see news of the marches in Selma, and it sparked conversations that all of us wanted to have. I remember our church pastor touching on the topic during sermons, mostly about treating everyone with respect and equality. For many people in Orofino, it was an eye-opening time, realizing that these issues of injustice and inequality were happening on such a large scale. That being said, change was a lot slower to reach towns like ours. The community was more insulated, and many people didn't quite grasp the idea of what was happening across the country. But as the decade progressed, even in Orofino, there was a growing awareness that the world was changing, that people were standing up for their rights in ways we hadn't seen before. So while we didn't experience the Civil Rights Movement firsthand in our streets, we were still affected by it. It shaped how we viewed the country and our place in it, and even in our small town. And it did a lot when it came to sparking conversations about fairness, justice, and the kind of world we wanted to live in.(Subjects: crm, movements) Wow, that was amazing to hear. I think it is really cool that you could still feel the shift happening as you say when you were still in your small town. I had a good idea about the diversity inside of Idaho at this time and it makes sense that you did not see a lot of physical changes, but I think it is awesome that you would still talk about what was going on when hearing on the radio or reading it in the newspaper.(Subjects: crm, movements) It was a good time, we didn't have cell phones to look at all day so we had to talk to each other. Some of the time we thought, why not talk about something that is important?(Subjects: crm, movements) That is awesome, I love to hear it. With there not being a lot of marches and those types of things happening in Orofino, did you experience any of the feminist movements, and how did hearing about those types of things make you feel?(Subjects: movements, gender) Like with the Civil Rights Movement, the feminist movements in the 1960s didn't have the same kind of presence in Orofino as they did in larger cities. We didn't have rallies or protests in the streets, but there were definitely rumblings about it, especially as it started getting more attention in the media. Growing up in a conservative town, a lot of the traditional values about women's roles were still pretty strong. Women were expected to take care of the home and family, and it wasn't as common to see women pursuing careers or higher education. Not saying this is right, but this is how it was and how life was around me. Hearing about the feminist movements, especially with figures like Betty Friedan and her book The Feminine Mystique, challenged a lot of those ideas. I remember it causing a bit of a stir, even among people I knew. There was some pushback because it was new and went against what many people believed was the "natural order" of things. But at the same time, there were women in Orofino who quietly agreed with the movement, even if they weren't out there marching. You could see a subtle shift in attitudes like women starting to question whether they really had to follow the same path their mothers and grandmothers did. Personally, it made me think. I grew up with those traditional values, so at first, it felt a little unsettling to hear women fighting for things like equal pay or more opportunities outside the home. But the more I heard about it, the more I realized that it wasn't about rejecting family life or traditional values at all. It was about giving women the choice to decide what they wanted to do with their lives. And that idea, the idea of having options, started to make me feel for them and agree with parts of their movement. It wasn't an overnight change, and in Orofino, it took time for these ideas to really take root. But the feminist movement definitely had an impact, even if it was more subtle. It got people talking and thinking about the role of women in society, and slowly but surely, you started to see changes. More women were going to college or entering the workforce, and even though it wasn't happening on a large scale in Orofino, you could feel the change blowing through, just like with the other movements of the time. I remember my mom supporting this a lot at the time before her passing.(Subjects: movements, gender) That was great to hear, I assumed that there was not a whole lot of attention right away in Orofino but I am glad to hear your perspective on how it made you and others feel. I think it is crazy to look back and see how all of that was totally normal of you when that is not the case for me in my life at all.(Subjects: movements, gender) The world changes fast and we can be grateful and scared of that fact.(Subjects: movements, gender) Wow, I couldn't agree more with that. Now, let's talk about some fun things that were happening in the sixties. What was dating like for you back then?(Subjects: dating) Oh, dating in the 1960s was definitely a lot of fun, but it was pretty different from what you'd see today! When I was in Ophonio there were not that many girls around and everyone knew everyone. This was a little awkward when it came to dating, but there was still a lot of love in the air and it happened all the time. When it comes to actually trying to date a girl, for one thing, everything was much more formal. If you were interested in someone, you were not able to text them or meet up, you had to muster up the courage to call their house. That usually meant speaking to their parents first, which could be the most nerve-wracking part. You'd ask permission to take their daughter out on a date, and then plan something, usually on a weekend. The dates were simple but meaningful. You would go to the movies, grab a soda at the local diner, or maybe attend a school dance. You had to be creative because there wasn't a lot of entertainment like we have now. If you were lucky, you'd go to a drive-in movie. That was always a favorite because you could watch the film from your car, which gave you a little more privacy. But there was still an unspoken set of rules about behavior, especially if the girl's parents were keeping an eye on things! And as I said before, everyone in my town knew everyone, so there was no funny business with anyone. Once you start dating someone regularly, you might give them your class ring or letterman jacket as a sign you were exclusive. It was a big deal when that happened back then. People took dating seriously, but it was a slower, more deliberate process. There wasn't as much pressure to rush things, and there was a clear sense of stages in a relationship Looking back on it, I think that dating was a lot more innocent. There was more emphasis on getting to know someone through conversation and shared activities, rather than just jumping into a relationship. It was a little more formal but in a charming way. There's a certain nostalgia to it that you don't see as much today. But me and your grandmother still share that type of love.(Subjects: dating ) That is amazing and so sweet that you share this type of love still. I think it is awesome and very sweet how this was what you had to do to get a girl back in the day. I could not imagine you giving a girl your football jacket back in the day.(Subjects: dating) I personally never did, one of my best friends did and they are still married to this day. Used to live about 2 miles from here.(Subjects: dating) That is so sweet. Keeping with a happy topic, what was some of your favorite media back in the day? What were some of your favorite music you listened to?(Subjects: media, music) The 1960s were such a great time for music and movies, It was an era where you could feel the culture in the media we were consuming. The music was amazing and something I very much miss. The Beatles were a huge part of the soundtrack of that time. Their arrival in the U.S. with the British Invasion completely changed the music scene. I remember when "I Want to Hold Your Hand" came out and it felt like every teenager in the country was hooked. Their albums like Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band and Revolver were groundbreaking. You couldn't go anywhere without hearing their music, and that was the best part. But it wasn't just The Beatles that were popular at the time, there were also The Rolling Stones, The Beach Boys, and Motown artists like The Supremes and Marvin Gaye that really shaped the sound of the decade. I was obsessed with music when I was your age and would do anything I could to listen to all of the new songs no matter who made them. I also enjoyed Elvis Presley who was extremely popular in the early 60s, and his rock and roll style was a major part of our youth. My mom would always be singing Elvis songs in the kitchen while she cooked or did other things around the house and I remember when I was little she would dress me up like Elvis and I would run into the living room saying, "Hello there pretty mama", in my best Elvis impression. As the decade went on, folk music became a lot more popular with artists like Bob Dylan and Joan Baez becoming a way for people to express themselves, especially during the civil rights movement. The mix of rock, pop, and folk created this amazing variety of music to listen to.(Subjects: media, music) That's awesome, I remember a lot about my mom talking about her mom singing those songs to her as well so it sounds like it stayed in the family well which is awesome. I think music from back then was very cool but I had no idea it made such an impact on the people at the time. It seems like you remember a lot about the music that was coming out and the artist which is very cool to me.(Subjects: media, music) Music at the time was a way to escape from some of the things going on around you, as well as when you are out with your friends it is a great time to enjoy tunes we all knew the words to. I was also a big fan of movies back then but they were a lot harder to get to.(Subjects: media, music) I was wondering about that, what were some of your favorite movies then and what did you have to do to watch them?(Subjects: media, movies) Watching movies when I was a kid was very difficult. We had to actually go out to the theater, and in a small town like Orofino, we didn't have a local movie theater on every corner. Sometimes we'd have to drive to a bigger town nearby. It wasn't something you did every weekend, so when you did go, it was a big event. You'd plan ahead, maybe get a group of friends together, and make a night of it. The theaters were often pretty basic, nothing like the multiplexes you see now, but that didn't matter, we were just excited to see the film and be at a theater. If you missed a movie at the theater, you had to wait for it to show up on TV, which could take a while. Also having working television in Orofino was pretty rare tell about 1967 I would say. There would be a couple of families that had them here and there, and some at the schools and such. But my family and a lot of my friend's families didn't get them to tell about that time. And even at that time when the films did come out, they would be edited for time and commercials, so it wasn't quite the same experience as the big screen. So, when you went to the theater, you really felt like you were part of something special. I also feel that in the 60s, going to the movies was definitely more of an adventure than it is today! Some of my favorite films were the big musicals and epics, like The Sound of Music and West Side Story. Those were huge productions with amazing soundtracks that everyone loved. I also got really into the James Bond series. James Bond was this larger-than-life character, and the action and style of those films were something completely new at the time. Television was also starting to take off in a big way. Shows like The Andy Griffith Show, I Love Lucy, and Bonanza were family staples. Very interesting and funny shows that you can watch in the house with the whole family. But toward the end of the decade, shows like The Twilight Zone and Star Trek brought something different with more futuristic ideas. It felt like the media was reflecting all these big possibilities that can happen around the world. Not as much as music, but movies were a huge part of life back then. They weren't just entertainment, they really shaped how we saw the world and reflected the culture of the 60s. Looking back, it was a great time to be a fan of both!(Subjects: media, movies) That is awesome to hear, I wish I could go back and experience what it was like going to a movie theater back then. I have never watched a movie from that period, but I do have to do a report one on for this class as well, do you have any recommendations that you think I would enjoy the best?(Subjects: media) I always think it is really fun to rewatch the first Planet of the Apes, as well as the first James Bond film Dr. No. I think these are some of my favorites to go back and watch. that I would recommend for you to see.(Subjects: media) Thank you I appreciate it, I have a question that I have been curious about and wanted to ask you. How did the effect of the assassination of JFK and MLK make you feel? Or how did it affect what was going on around you?(Subjects: assassination) The assassination of John F. Kennedy and Martin Luther King Jr. had a really big effect on me and other people during that time. Both of them were seen as symbols of hope and change in the country, and their influence on people was way beyond just politics or civil rights. So much happened in the 60s like the civil rights movement and the Cold War. And these two figures represented a kind of vision for a better America which involved peace. JFK, with his youthful charisma, brought a sense of hope to the country. When he became president, there was this feeling that we were entering a new time. He talked about things like civil rights and equality, and although he didn't solve everything during his time in office, his support of those ideas gave people hope. It felt like we were heading in the right direction, even in small towns like Orofino. When JFK was assassinated in 1963, it was like the whole country stopped. I remember people were in shock, it felt like we had lost a leader who could have made real change. Then, you had Martin Luther King Jr., who was on the front lines of the fight for civil rights. His message of nonviolent protest was very inspiring, even from a distance. For someone like me, living in a small town, we didn't see the marches first hand, but we felt the impact of his work in the newspapers and on TV. King wasn't just fighting for Black Americans, he was pushing for a country where everyone had equal rights, and that was a strong message. The connection between JFK's vision and King's movement made it seem like the country was at a sort of crossroads. You could sense that something big was happening, and even though change was slow in Orofino, you knew the world was shifting. When MLK was assassinated in 1968, it was devastating. We had already lost JFK, and now, one of the most important voices for equality was gone too. But despite the tragedy, there was also a sense that their legacies would continue to inspire people. In a way, their assassinations, and then their deaths, brought people together in grief which made us talk peacefully. There was this feeling that even though they were gone, the values they stood for had to keep moving forward. For me, and many others, it was a time of reflection and a realization that change had to come, even if it was slow and painful.(Subjects: assassination) Wow, that was inspiring to hear. I knew that it was a very hard time for a lot of people in America for many different reasons when both of these assassinations happened, but I didn't know that people were directly thinking of their impact when they died. I assumed that a lot of people felt more hate for the men who did these acts or confusion of why it happened, not as much as looking at the hope they provided and trying to continue what they were speaking on.(Subjects: assassination) When crazy things like that happen people need to talk to each other to try to get over their grief, many of the conversations were about what they stood for and how it was a good thing. I think myself and others just wanted to make them proud in a way because we did believe in what they stood for.(Subjects: assassination) That is amazing, I have one more question for you then we can wrap up this interview.(Subjects: nostalgia ) Perfect, I don't know if I can remember much else about those days.(Subjects: nostalgia ) I understand and appreciate all that you have given me. My last question is, if you could go back to the 60s and bring something back to now, what would it be and why?(Subjects: nostalgia ) If I could bring something back from the 60s to today, I think it would be the sense of community and togetherness we had back then. There was something about that era, especially in small towns like Orofino, where people really knew their neighbors, and we were more connected on a personal level. Families, friends, and communities would gather more often, whether it was for a church event, a picnic, or just a weekend barbecue. People helped each other out more, and there was this underlying feeling that we were all in it together. It wasn't perfect back then, but that sense of community really helped carry people through difficult times, and I think it could make a big difference in today's world too. As for an item I wish I could bring back, it would definitely be my favorite view master with all of the discs I had when I was young. It was those red lenses that you put to your eyes to see through and you could move to slides and watch small film-type things and other stuff like that. It is definitely a part of my childhood that I look back on often and I loved playing with that viewmaster. One of my favorite memories when I was a kid would be when my dad would get back from work and surprise me with a new disc to watch. I would love to bring that back and play with it again.(Subjects: nostalgia, toys) That is awesome, I really like hearing how close the town felt for you and the impact that it had on you. I felt that when I was being raised on the small island of Ketchikan, I felt those close connections and how that community feeling can make you be happier and have support in different ways. I also think it is awesome that you had a bunch of different discs for your Viewmaster. I remember being little and my mom had one for me to play with and it had all of the Disney characters, I can only wonder what you were looking at in yours at the time. That is really amazing to hear and I'm glad you have fond memories looking back at those times.(Subjects: nostalgia, toys) It was a great and simple time that I will never forget, I am really glad I grew up in the 60s and live my life now and really see how the world has changed so much and how much of a difference being kind can be.(Subjects: nostalgia) Amazing I am so glad to hear it. Thank you so much for having this interview with me and letting me ask you questions about your past and record it for my class. I had a really good time hearing how your life was back then and how you felt about the numerous topics that I brought up. Thank you again for sharing your insight on life in the 1960s.(Subjects: closing words) Of course, thank you for bringing me back to the old days, I hope I gave you enough information to work from. I appreciate you talking to me kid!(Subjects: closing words) You did perfect and gave me more than enough information. I appreciate you very much and thank you again!(Subjects: closing words)

Sharon Stanley Click to filter

Hello, my name is Sam Verharen and I'm here with my grandmother Dr. Sharon Stanley. My first question just to start off is, could you please introduce yourself, including your current or former occupation. Okay, my name is Sharon Stanley, I live on Bainbridge Island and I have eight absolutely gorgeous grandsons. I started working when I was 16 and I'm still working; I'm 82 years old. I'm a psychologist now, working in the field of trauma, and I'm just completed the second edition of my book on trauma that's used in the field of trauma and I just completed the second edition of my book on trauma that's used in universities on a doctoral level. So, that will be coming out in March. So I'm working hard and fascinated by it. And, this is an important part of it, the Vietnam experience.(Subjects: job history) So my next question is, what is your best memory of living through the 1960s? Wow, that's a lot of years. Those are formative years. You know, when you first proposed the question about Vietnam to me, I remember standing on the beach in Guam, I was 22, 23 years old, and watching the planes leave Guam to do the first bombing in Vietnam and I believe that was 1965. But I can remember just my heart really pounding and I had your dad in my arms.(Subjects: Vietnam ) So, where did you live throughout the 1960s? And this is kind of a broad question, but what was your occupations during this time?(Subjects: occupation) Okay, so starting in the 1960s, I was a college student, and I had a variety of college kinds of jobs. And in 1963, I cut short my education, and got married, and shortly thereafter left for Guam. So my occupation was mainly having babies for a few years.(Subjects: gender roles) And where did you, so before you lived in Guam, you lived where? I was living in Seattle. After Guam, I moved back to Olympia. And your grandfather was hired as an assistant attorney general for the government of Guam. And then he was hired in Tacoma as, a judge at the age of 29. And we lived in Tacoma. And then from Tacoma, I moved to Victoria and finished my doctorate. And that was 1990. I started in 1990 and finished in 94, living in Canada. And then I moved back to the Gig Harbor area Tacoma area. And then I finished my thesis, worked for the University of Washington for a while and set up their counseling department at the new branch. And then I was asked to go on faculty at University of Victoria so I moved back up to Victoria and started working as a instructor but I also started working with Indigenous people, throughout Canada, so a way I'm lost in the years was, I only supposed to do till 1970.(Subjects: work history) It's actually great just to provide context. That's great thank you okay, so this is also maybe broad but how has the workplace environment changed since the 1960s?(Subjects: Workplace ) Well, the workplace environment that I'm in right now is my own home and I could show you what that looks like but you already know so at that time, workplace was always more formal, much more formal, much more hierarchical, and it was it was pretty organized in terms of you expected to get a pension, you were expected to stay there for life once you found your place and then you expected you'd retire at 60 or 65 and have a retirement life. So that all changed after Vietnam.(Subjects: Workplace ) What do you think made that change? Why do you think Vietnam led to that change?(Subjects: Workplace ) There were so many different developments, and I think the social development that I noticed most particularly was when I went off to Guam in 1964. Everything was still very stable. When I came back from Guam in 1967, everything had changed. It was basically, for my generation, the people I knew that hadn't gotten married, and some that had, was the beginning of the hippie revolution. And people started wanting to do what they wanted to do. They took a stand. And so many of the young people my age were marching, and they were standing up for what was morally wrong, what they thought was morally wrong about Vietnam. And I think it was the beginning of a shift, what I call psychologically, from a role, R-O-L-E, role-oriented identity, that you took on a role, and you filled out that identity, to a person-based identity. You got a sense of what was right or wrong. You got a sense of who you were. You dressed to express that. And so it was much more of a shift, a radical shift in identity. It changed the workplace. It changed how people wanted to work. It changed jobs, from my point of view.(Subjects: hippe movement ) Yeah. No, and I'm sure it's very, very accurate. So what was your day-to-day life like, and how did that change in the terms of a modern context?(Subjects: homelife) So at what moment in time? So what was day-to-day life like during the 1960s? And how do you think that the day-to-day has changed in 2024? Okay. Actually, my day-to-day life, after we came back from Guam, and we came back in, we came back before the end of the Vietnam War. We came back two years. So we came back in 66. And so then '66, through the end of that decade, for me was, I was very engaged with having babies, raising children, and helping my husband start his career. One of the things that I've noticed is that how affluent everything seemed, how much was available in the grocery stores, that was different. It seemed like there was so much more connection with the world rather than in our local area. And, that was the whole Civil Rights era, too. And I, I got a sense a lot of the Civil Rights movement came out of some of the destabilization, Vietnam, and that movement. I don't know, how, but I, I noticed, I noticed so many changes. My life was pretty stable at that time, but so many changes in my class roommates from high school, and people I'd known from college, that hadn't gone into the more domestic kind of role-oriented.(Subjects: motherhood, Vietnam) And you think that was Vietnam that did that? It kind of destabilized?(Subjects: Vietnam) Well, it sure looked like that to me. Yeah. It destabilized so much. I think the campus, protests, Kent State, what happened there and, that there, there was just a it was a revolution of a sort from my point of view. Although, I mainly saw it from, like, from the point of view of the TV and newspapers. And I remember your dad seeing pictures, horrible pictures. They'd never show them now, and what was going on in Vietnam on the TV. He was born around '64, so he was there, and he, as a young child, watched a lot of that devastation on TV. We didn't really know how bad that might be.(Subjects: motherhood, Vietnam) Yeah, definitely. Do you think that affected being a mother and being a child during Vietnam?(Subjects: motherhood, Vietnam) I do. I think there was an unrest that happened. In fact, I think what's really interesting, Sam, is this book I have that changed my life, Trauma and Recovery, was written by a woman named Judith Herman, who was at Harvard. And what she did is she gathered all the data of the trauma of the Vietnam vets and their experience. What she was able to do is see that that was similar for the children and the spouses of the Vietnam vets, that the Vietnam vets came home with that trauma, and immediately their wives and children had that same trauma. So she showed how the domestic abuse and the violence in the home that rose exponentially after the Vietnam War was directly connected to the returning soldiers. And we were living in a community in Tacoma where there were five military bases. And so we saw all of the violence that was going on. There was a suicide epidemic in the schools. There was a huge psychological impact from that war.(Subjects: motherhood, Vietnam) Wow, that's super interesting. So this is kind of a switch of topic, but what was your favorite band to listen to during this time?(Subjects: music) Well, the Beatles, of course. And, Sam, I got to see the Beatles.(Subjects: music) Oh, yes. Yeah, that's right. Where did you see the Beatles?(Subjects: music) Well, when your grandpa and I were coming home from Guam, it was a three-day journey, actually a four-day journey, because there was a there was a strike, the airline strike, and so we had to hole up in the airport in Honolulu. They wouldn't let us go out and stay in a hotel. I had two babies, and so I had to walk all around the airport with these babies, just as exercise and keeping them going, and the Beatles were marooned also in the airport, and so every chance I got, I'd go by and look at them. A couple of times, I'd say hi, and they'd say hi, and that was about the extent of it, so.(Subjects: music ) That is such a great story. What shows did you watch during this time?(Subjects: shows, media ) Wow, that's a good question. We didn't have a TV. Yeah. We had a TV, and then we didn't. The news always. So it was in the 70s, we didn't have the TV. They always turned the news on, because everything was so unstable. I remember wanting to know what was what, and now as I go back, I remember it was mainly children's shows I watched at that time.(Subjects: shows, media ) Really? What kind of children's shows? (Subjects: media ) Oh, puppets and, um, I wish I could remember the names of it.(Subjects: media ) Oh, that's okay. My dad always references TV shows he watched. He loves his 70s TV shows. So you mentioned you didn't own a TV during a the 70s. Why was that?(Subjects: media) Well, I just did not like the influence on my children that I saw the TV had. Then Michael came home from school. One day, my mother said, 'I think I need to report you for child abuse,' and I said, 'Why?' She said, 'He said because we don't have a TV, and I can't enter into the conversations at school.' So anyway, I think we relented later in the 70s and got the TV. But yeah then I think everyone wanted to watch it all the time cause we didn't have it for a while, so it was forbidden fruit. But it was in a different area of the house that I usually inhabited. I was usually upstairs and we had a big TV room downstairs.(Subjects: media) Do you feel the media had an impact on the way you viewed the world during the 1960s(Subjects: media) Oh yeah the news did.(Subjects: media) Why do you feel that the news had such a profound impact?(Subjects: media ) I think it goes back to the whole idea of trauma. I think hearing and understanding what was going on in Vietnam and the violence -- I think there was some kind of violence that I was exposed to that made me realize how horrific trauma was. I think it was talking to men who came home, my classmates. You only went over to Vietnam for a year, but there were so many damaged lives of people I knew. The young men, and now I'm reading the book by Kristen Hanna called The Women, which is about the women of Vietnam. So that topic has always fascinated me. But I think the impact of the trauma of the whole era is something I'm still trying to sort out, and its effect on me personally.(Subjects: media, Vietnam) So do you think that that has changed today, news and its influence?(Subjects: current media) Wow, that's definitely changed, where there's so many alternatives now to the news. In those days, there were three major news sources, ABC, NBC, and CBS. And in those days, they told pretty much the same story. And they would get the one story that came from the government or the military generals, and that same story then was the story. Now there's so many stories from so many perspectives about the same experiences. And I think it's radically changed our culture.(Subjects: media) Do you think that's a positive change or a negative change?(Subjects: media) You know, I think there's been some positive aspects to it. But I think it has profound changes that we don't even know about yet. And I think the most profound change is the way we get news now and I think TV started it. But now with the internet, and the way it's so close at hand, every minute of the day, every minute of the night, what the research is showing is it's caused people, first of all, to have far less face-to-face connections. And so there's much less social engagement, which means much less strong mental health. Because the number one criteria of strong mental health is social engagement. So the day-to-day fy face-to-face encounters are down, for most people around 60%. And face-to-face encounters have a radically different three-dimensional effect than the one dimension. And they also have the experience of being in the same room, they can actually measure the energy going between people. And so sometimes it's nice to be around energy that's healthy and vibrant and vitality. But a lot of times, it's nice to have your sanctuary and your privacy. So you're not picking up on other people's energy or vibes. So but positive or negative, how do we stay embodied? And how do we trust our embodiment to tell us what's true? How do we get our do we get our facts from out there? Or do we get our facts from our heart? What's true?(Subjects: media ) Yeah. So I know this answer, but did you have children?(Subjects: motherhood) Yes, I did(Subjects: motherhood) And if so, with whom did you have them with?(Subjects: motherhood) I had them with Arthur Verheren, Jr. I had four(Subjects: motherhood) Do you feel what was expected of a mother in the 1960s is different from that of today?(Subjects: motherhood) Radically, radically different yeah I often am very grateful for the opportunity I had to be home with my children until they became school age and then when they became school age I became a school teacher so i had the opportunity to be there in their in their growing up. I think a lot of young mothers today don't have that opportunity and I think there's a grief that they carry and a grief their children carry.(Subjects: motherhood, marital roles) Why do you think that has changed?(Subjects: motherhood, marital roles) You know I've studied that some and how the economic world has radically changed. In the days that I was a young mother you could buy a house we bought a beautiful three-bedroom two-bath house with three acres brand new for seventeen thousand dollars your grandfather's salary was something like twenty thousand at the most but you know today a house like that would cost at least in the area I live in four hundred and fifty five thousand and somebody making a hundred thousand a year is doing good. So if you want to have a house and you want to have bedrooms for your children and if you want to feed them nutritious food you're going to need at least two incomes. You know it's just radically different economic system in those days food was food was so much less expensive and and you know it was much more taken for granted that you would put in a garden and you would grow and and there were many less things to spend money on you know. I made all all my children's clothes from pajamas to play outfits little indian suits and now so i was making a lot of their toys you know and I was making a lot of their toys. It all changed the whole commercialization uh changed what people needed and then I changed too.(Subjects: motherhood, marital roles) Do you feel what was expected of a wife in the 1960s(Subjects: marital roles) It was different radically different right there was a role and what we have today is still that role that needs to be fulfilled but also the identity issue but yeah you weren't really a person you were doing something you were told to do and and you promised to obey when I was getting married and the catholic church that I was married in had very strict requirements for what it meant to be a wife,(Subjects: marital roles) What were those kinds of requirements?(Subjects: marital roles) Obedience. If you were asked to do something, you did it. I couldn't get a credit card, I couldn't have anything, I couldn't buy things in my own name. There was no... I had no rights to say no to purchases, large purchases. There was there was not an equality; it was definitely a hierarchical role in the family and it was a moral, religious, and legal. It was it had always been there, and there was a part of me that was a that was a a little more rebellious, and I know I saw that in my mother too, you know. And there was more I wanted out of life once my kids got in school. That's why I started becoming a school teacher, and then it was 10 years before I didn't turn my check over to my husband; I always thought I could keep my own check and keep any money from it so he got to decide what was purchased and when it was purchased and what we spent money on. I didn't have that control.(Subjects: marital roles) Wow, that must have been really hard to grapple with.(Subjects: marital roles) It was the way things were, and so to think of it being different then, you felt ashamed because you weren't fitting in; you weren't belonging, and so it could create a lot of problems. And I think that's what I'm trying to do, especially; it would create, it would create...as everything changed, and as things moved from the authoritarian to much more of a mutuality in relationships. As things changed, people didn't want to give up their power that had power. People wanted to hold on to their ability to control and to get what they wanted when they wanted to it with a smile, on every level.(Subjects: marital roles) Do you think there's still work to be done today?(Subjects: marital roles) Sammy, that's a big part of the work I teach is how damaging the patriarchy is and the way that patriarchy came out of colonialism which is the source of so many of these wars. But that patriarchy upholds colonialism. And you know, working with indigenous people, that's where they would shift the balance of power that kept indigenous peoples' societies beautifully structured. And so it would become much more patriarchal that's when the violence would begin and the ability to take over. So the work I'm doing particularly between its interesting we were doing a lot of work a couple weeks ago up in Alaska working with groups of women about how to have a mutuality with their partners, vulnerability to domestic abuse that's still rampant in cultures that are trying to heal from colonialism, and that's what Vietnam was trying to do.(Subjects: power imbalance ) Heal us from? North Vietnam had just gotten freedom from the colonialism in France, and the United States didn't like that. And just like the United States doesn't like the presidential candidates we have right now and want to see the patriarchy established firmly as a religious evangelical certainty. And I think, in fact, my new book that I'm reading right now is 'The Kingdom, The Power, and The Glory' Uh, American, evangelicals in an age of extremism, and I think we need to go there and look at what that's about.(Subjects: poiltics, religon ) Yeah definitely. My Zoom, I think is running out of time, I'm gonna have to start us a new meeting because I don't have a Zoom plus, but we can just go until it stops. If you want to keep going, great. Oh no, yeah definitely. I have tons of questions. so I'd love to finish the answer to that one too. Totally go for it I'm sorry. I know that's okay, I'll let it come back so you'll go ahead and make the shift. So do you think that the expectations towards beauty standards for women have changed? And even men.(Subjects: Beauty standards) You know I think that the split in our culture around this extremism. We've got the split between the male and female. We've got the split between like the women that live on the island I live on don't get their nails gelled; they don't often, it's a sign of freedom if there's no makeup on. There's a natural look for some parts of the culture that consider themselves highly educated and well-traveled; then there's a different beauty standard for women who are remaining wha I think of often as subservient and need to please men, so there's that patriarchy and mutualism. And I think the gender changes that are happening in the world today is really ways to find different ways of expressing who you are on that spectrum from needing to have those standards of beauty to needing to feel healthy and real and alive, you know, and not try to alter things that are natural so I don't know if that makes sense but I see it, I see it as a class issue.(Subjects: Beauty standards, patriarchy) That's really interesting. Yeah, I know, totally do you think it was.(Subjects: Beauty standards, patriarchy) One more caveat yeah uh the very high upper class just can do it in much more expensive non-visual ways. Ways like faceless, mm-hmm, uh, but my experience is women who are secure in themselves. It's not usually their issue of how to look beautiful.(Subjects: Beauty standards, patriarchy) Do you think it was the same in the 60s?(Subjects: Beauty standards) Oh no, I mean, in the 60s, you had to look a certain way. You had to wear... I actually had a class in high school on how to apply makeup, yeah, yeah.(Subjects: Beauty standards) So what was the way that you had to look?(Subjects: Beauty standards) Well, the hairstyle - The 60s was all about teased hair and lots of lacquer. And it was about the right color lipstick. It was about eyebrows, weren't interesting except you had to have them plucked. You could use mascara, and rouge was used, and... You needed to be tan in the summer.(Subjects: Beauty standards) Why do you think that there were so many rules towards women?(Subjects: Beauty standards, patriarchy) To keep them in control, the only way patriarchy will work is if women are in control. And patriarchy and colonialism, which often has gotten connected with capitalism, it's not the same thing, has gotten so interwoven in some aspects from my point of view that it's all tied together. I mean, just look at the ads you see on different venues like what you see on one magazine might be radically different than another magazine but who are you appealing to in those magazines? The very wealthy or the very disempowered.(Subjects: Beauty standards, patriarchy) How did it feel to watch the Civil Rights Movement unfold in the 1960s?(Subjects: Civil Rights) ...(Subjects: Civil Rights) How did the Vietnam War affect you or your community?(Subjects: Vietnam War) ...(Subjects: Vietnam War)

John Zor Click to filter

Tell me when you're ready. I'm ready. Okay. My name is John* Jacob Zohr. I was born in New York but moved to California when I was 5 years old.(Subjects: personal) So I'm a California boy, and, I'm 78 years old. And live in presently Artesia, but grew up in Bellflower for 20 years. California. And that's in the Southland (Southern California). Okay.(Subjects: personal) Alright. My name is Zach*. I'm the interviewer. This is my grandpa. So I guess just to start with, you did say your age, but, what year were you born? 1926, May. 19 sorry. One more time. 1946. 46.(Subjects: personal) Okay. May. Yes. Okay. So in the sixties, you started about 14 years old and until about 25, give or take? Yep. That's about right. You know? Okay. So I figured we'd start, with culture, just kind of the general, you know, happenings at the time. So, what kind of, television shows or what kind of books and things were popular at the time? What kind of media did you guys like? I didn't really read much, you know, as far as books, just whatever they required you at school. I went to a Catholic school, started in 7th grade and graduated, you know, in 12th. And, movies, I used to enjoy comedy.(Subjects: culture) And like I say, such as the Beverly Hillbillies, also, I'm trying to think now, the Addams family Oh, yeah. And the Munsters. And, also, let me think again. I'm trying to think, and she was, I can't think of it right now. But, oh, I did watch, you know, I guess the pressure is putting on me with with Ephraim Simballis junior was in it. I can't think of the name of it. But, yeah, mainly that. And then, you know, once I was 61 or 62, I didn't watch TV that much. You know? We'd go to the show, go to the movies, you know, and stuff like that in the car.(Subjects: culture) Drive ins were big in my era. Oh, yeah. Did you go to the movies and things with your friends a lot? Well, mainly with girls. And, we had a one drive in that that pictures might be a week or two older, and it was only a dollar to get into the drive in. You didn't have to pay for each individual, you know, which made it nice. And, so and and my, I bought a my first car was a 57 Ford. I bought them in 61, and I bought a, 62 Ford in 1963 with bucket seats. I went to the drive in with a girl. It was most comfortable that the having bucket seats, the passenger seat would fold down forward so you could sit in the back seat, a little more comfortable, we'll say, and, have a foot rest too That's pretty nice.(Subjects: culture, dating) Yeah. Do you remember what you paid for the car at the time? Why, sure. I paid, for my first car, the 57 Ford, I think I paid $450, and that was 61. And for the it was a 4 zero six Ford, which, was a race car, same like a Chevy 409, except it's a Ford that had a 4 speed, 406 cubic inch, 405 horsepower. And I did a trophy at Irwindale Raceway in it.(Subjects: culture) I think I turned the high fourteens, a speed about 92 or 93. Wow. So I know I know you, enjoy, cars a lot. I know you used to collect them a lot more, especially when you were younger as well. Yeah. When did you start getting into cars? Oh, I'd always been into cars. That's why I bought the Ford.(Subjects: personal) And, when I got out of the service, you see, my brother had a 61 Corvette that I used all the time. He was married, and I'd just go out to his place and, borrow his vet for, you know, Friday night or Saturday night or whatever. It was nice driving around. And when I got out of the service, I decided I was either going to get a Ford, Torino or an old 442. And I said something to my brother. He says, why don't you get a Corvette? You use mine all the time. So I did, and I bought a 66 Corvette. It was 2 years old. I paid $31100 for it, which I think knew they were about 45100, you know, and I still have that car also. And my brother who just passed away last year, December 17th, He still has his 61 Corvette, so we both still have our Vets.(Subjects: personal) That Vette is pretty cool. I've seen it. So I will say that's pretty crazy, the first car for $450. Do you remember generally what the economy is like? I'm not super familiar with it. Oh, the economy was good and oh, yes. In 61. Yeah. I can't remember any recessions in 61', although we had one, like, in 58' that I recall. My brother worked at, North American. I don't know if Rockwell had bought him yet, but he got laid off, you know, for a small a short period of time. Yeah. And so I'd say the economy was good. And in the Southland where we lived, I mean, it was un unbelievable. We had Douglas Aircraft, and we had North American. Well, Douglas, Douglas had it and then, Douglas, was bought out by, you know, they merged with another company just like(Subjects: economy) Boeing. Right? No. No. Boeing is a different era. That that is completely different company. You know, McDonnell Douglas is what we were called once McDonnell bought in about 1965. Oh, I see. North American Rockwell. And the thing about it is where I lived on Lakewood Boulevard in Bellflower, one was only 4 miles away and the other was 5 miles away. It's straight up Lakewood Boulevard. And the one thing about Douglas, they opened up in 1941, the big plant in Long Beach. And during World War 2, they had a 160,000 people employed at that plant.(Subjects: economy) At just that plant? Just at that plant. Yes. Wow. I mean, I don't know I don't remember if at that time they were on a 170 acres or whatever, But, you know, it was big, and and that's where the Long Beach Airport was right alongside of it. I don't know if they built that right after or about the same time, but I thought that was a statistic I just read last year in a a paper. We go to this restaurant, then they have a local Long Beach paper, and in it, was, the information that I just gave you, which I was phenomenal. I knew, my wife, Janice, worked there in from 67 to the 1st week of 76. So I can remember when she got laid off. And I think then they employed about 40 or 50,000 people at that one plant. They had other plants, you know, in the south. Wow. The the southland (Southern California) was phenomenal. We had steel making plants. We had aluminum plants. We had tire companies. We had everything. Firestone was here. Goodyear was here. And since then, they've all moved out. Even the auto industry has moved out. Not just the Southland, but all of California. Tesla grew. Yeah. Texas and things of the like.(Subjects: personal, economy) Wow. So that's pretty cool. I believe you worked for (McDonnell) Douglas for a long period of time. Would you describe kind of, I guess, I let's start with, let's say your community. I know you said you went to a Catholic school.(Subjects: religion) Yes. Were a lot of your friends coming from there? What about people in your neighborhood? Would you kind of describe the financial situation of you guys, your family, and maybe the people around you? Well, I'd say my family was more the upper middle class as far as financial. And, I live I'd say the area I lived in wasn't quite the upper middle class. My mother owned, property there. She had a bar, and, she, you know, built a television shop for my father, my stepfather, and then she bought some other property there. We had a barber shop and a rental, so we had a little property there. So like I say, I'd say she's more upper middle class. And, yeah.(Subjects: personal) Very cool. No. I did work at McDonnell Douglas that I was hired in 1969. And I served 31 years at Douglas, and I was fortunate that I never got laid off. But I didn't work in the Long Beach plant. I worked in the Torrance plant, and it only employed about 6,000 people. Wow. That's still a lot of people. Yeah. And I was a blue collar worker. I wouldn't, they asked me to go to salary a couple times, and I told them I'm sorry, but I'm overqualified. Do you remember what you, your wage was at least to start and maybe? Oh, sure. I remember. I can tell you exactly what my wage was. I worked second shift, so I got 2.86 an hour, and I got 18¢ more for second shift, which put me at the 304 an hour. And then you went up from there. I think a a top a in my classification was making, let's say, on a day shift, not second, probably 3:40 an hour or in that range, 3:50 an hour. And this is 1969.(Subjects: economy) Is that considered pretty well for the time? Do you know? Yes. Yes. I'd say that was a decent wage. It's, enough. I don't know. One person working could buy a house. It depends. New houses in 70, 71 in Cerritos were running, we'll say, 25,000 where you could buy an older Lakewood home, and the Lakewood homes were 3 bedroom, 1 bath, maybe 11 or 1200 square feet. And I think maybe you could get that for 15,000 or 16,000. It was that much difference. The Cerritos homes were usually all nicer, newer, and, 4 bedroom, 2 bath. Almost all of all of them had two baths where the Lakewood homes and and what's even funny is, some of the homes in Lakewood, they started maybe Lakewood became a city in 1947. And Long Beach thought that they were going to be able to absorb them because they didn't think they could afford to have a fire department or police. But what they did was, and I can't think of his name, but he was the mayor when the city started. Instead of having their own, they contract labor for fire and police. So they were able to start, and it was the first city formed since, I think, 1939. Interesting. In the nation, not just in California, but in the nation. They, they were the first city formed after World War 2.(Subjects: economy) Very cool. Well, I think I'm going to use this to start segueing into some questions about civil rights in general. So I'll start with a more open ended question, and we can kind of work toward, whatever comes forward. I guess, generally, how did it feel to watch the civil rights movements, unfold throughout the sixties if you didn't see it as much personally? Did you ever hear anything about it or stories, or did you have any interactions with it? I didn't have in any interaction, with it at all. The blacks, none were around in our area at all. You know? And we'd hear about it. And the civil rights, I think, was mainly in the south. We'll say, you know? But we did have the Watts riots in 1965. It was in August. Yeah. And, the reason why is back then they didn't record. You know, the police didn't have cameras and people weren't recording, but I guess, and the police force I'd say was predominantly Caucasian. Yeah. I don't know if they had any. So they could say they discriminated.(Subjects: civilrights) Yeah.(Subjects: civilrights) I don't know. The circumstance was they pulled somebody over, and I think for drunk driving, And I don't know what they did to them, but, other people must have saw it and been there, and so they started the Watts riots. And, it ruined about 70 homes. And, this was in LA more or less off the Harbor Freeway, which is at 110 now. And, the fire burned for 7 days, a whole weekday. You know? And there was at least 30 people killed you know, during this riot. And, also, I went down and cruised the riots accidentally. I was in the backseat of a car. Yes. It was about midnight. I don't know. I think it was the first 2 or 3 days of it or something. We used to shoot pool or wherever the heck we were, and that was 2 other guys. I don't even quite remember who it was because you're talking back, you know, 60 years. We decided what we're gonna do is just go drive down the freeway and see, what it looks like, the fires. And sure enough, he got off just to see, and it was burning. And I can remember going down one of the streets and even seeing a guy coming out of a TV show or an appliance store carrying a television.(Subjects: civilrights) And then you see a 100 people standing on the other corner just watching the buildings burn. It was just sun Unbelievable. And, you know, it was summertime, so we had the windows down. And, a black guy pulled up next to us with his girlfriend or wife. I don't know. But he says, I'm getting out of here. They're even throwing stuff at me and whatever. They were even throwing stuff at his car. So we just got back on the freeway and left. But like I said, you know, I cruised the Watts Riots, which was really, you know, something else. It wasn't voluntary. And thank goodness I was in the back seat. I figured I could knock down and, you know, more so and even get on the floor if necessary if they started. We don't know if I don't know if they shot at people. But I'm saying may have thrown Molotov cocktails or started the fires. And you never know. They might try to pull you out of the car and beat you up. So we didn't know. And, so they were just taking a chance, but we got back on the freeway and got the heck out of there.(Subjects: civilrights) Wow. Yep. So like I said and I know that, you know, back then, and the news wasn't on TV like it is today. You might have had a half an hour of news and maybe it was 6 to 6:30 or something like that. You didn't have it where it's on for hours and all these, you know, different stations. And so, you did have we did have a radio station on our AM radio, and it was 24 hour news. The reason why I know, not that I listened to it, I listened to music, but my stepfather, would play it all the time. So whenever we're in the car with him or whatever, he had this news, you know, the news going on. But I remember, you know, Martin Luther King's speech in DC. You know, you just caught some of it on the news where, I guess, a quarter 1000000 people or something like that showed up. And to me and I don't know if we're gonna get into it or another question. Out of all the decades in the 20th century, I consider the sixties the greatest. I believe it.(Subjects: culture, civilrights, media) I've heard that be a general consensus from people that lived through the 60s. A lot of people really enjoyed the sixties. There's a lot going on. I don't know if I should mention this now or later. You figure number 1, we landed on the moon in the sixties. Yep. 69 or 61? I think 69. No. 69. Yeah. 68 or 69, we landed on the moon. And, and, in 1960, Kennedy was running for president, and he's the 1st Catholic ever, president of the United States. Although in 1928, we had, I think a guy named Al Smith or something run for an Erwin against Hoover and, but he lost.(Subjects: culture, religion) So Was your family excited that Kennedy was elected president considering you guys were Catholics? All the Catholics were excited, you know, that something like that happened, especially since I go to a Catholic school. Yeah. You know? So, I mean, it was fantastic. And when Kennedy was assassinated, I remember exactly, I was going downstairs. My school was 3 story Catholic school, and the, we had boarders there even. You know, you could stay Monday through Friday or however long. And I was going downstairs. I I forget why I was going by myself, and brother Knowles said the president has just been shot. He didn't he didn't say he was dead, but he said the president had just been shot.(Subjects: culture) Wow. Do you remember any of the, I guess, the dialogue or anything that happened kind of immediately after that?(Subjects: culture) It was on TV day night day night. That's all they had on was that and showing him in his limousine. And I guess since it was nice weather, they took the top off. And so he was riding, and I think it was in Houston. And he was riding, and that's how they got him. So, you know.(Subjects: culture) Wow. Did they show the the full footage live on TV of him being killed?(Subjects: culture) Yes. They did as I recall. You know, as much you I don't know if you could actually see him kind of get hit, but, I mean, you know, maybe he went back and stuff like that.(Subjects: culture) But, yeah. Yeah. I know the sixties were, it was kind of a very sudden change. I think it was more in the fifties, but when the average household went from having a TV, I think it was it was very few and far between. And then all of a sudden, like, 75% of households had a TV. So everyone was consuming the this news every day that, know, they weren't used to getting before besides, you know, radio or newspaper.(Subjects: media) When you figure and back then, everybody had black and white sets. You didn't have colored sets. There might be a few percentage of color, but not many of the programs were even in color. Even some of these ones that I still watch, you know, on TV, we have color TV, but they were made in black and white. And then later on in that in the sixties, they started making them in color.(Subjects: media) Okay. Well, I guess stepping back into civil rights for a little bit, I remember you were talking about the Watts riots. Do you remember seeing or hearing about a lot of these demonstrations that were happening around the time, whether it be the boycotts or anything like that?(Subjects: civilrights, ) No. No. But, like I say, the reason for it was, how could you say? In well, up till 68, I think, until Johnson signed it, you didn't have to rent to blacks. You didn't have to, you know, you could discriminate. I think even in the sixties, we didn't have that problem where we live. But, I mean, even going into a restaurant or anything, You, you know, they weren't even allowed to use some bathrooms and stuff. Now that was more in the fifties. We didn't see anything like that where we lived because we didn't have any blacks around. We had a high percentage of Hispanics and some Portuguese because at that time, Bellflower, Paramount, Artesia was farm country, dairy country. And they we even had Dairy Valley here, which in which is Cerritos now. I don't know what they've had, but all the dairies moved to Chino, which is, not far, 30 miles away, we'll say. And, I watched Hugh Howser. I did. He passed away in 12, but they have repeats of him. And he did a special on Chino, and Chino was the largest dairy or the largest, dairy farms in the world. They have 300,000 cows.(Subjects: civilrights, ) Oh my gosh, that is a lot.(Subjects: civilrights, ) And since then, you know, Chino has started going down, you know, because residential, the houses are moving in. Like I said, that was it on that. You'd see some on TV, you know, and they they'd show it, but you gotta remember at that time, 65, 66, was what? 7 18, 19 years old.(Subjects: civilrights, ) Yeah.(Subjects: civilrights, ) You're not that interested in that. And a lot of that more was happening other than our riots, in the south. So you just the news.(Subjects: civilrights, ) That is something more that I hadn't really considered a lot is, you know, at a younger age, you're more con you're kind of concerned with, you know, what you're gonna do to for your job if you're gonna go to school for things like that.(Subjects: civilrights, ) Uh-huh. And, you know, you probably heard of some things, like, in passing, but you're not watching the news every single day.(Subjects: media) No. Not at all.(Subjects: civilrights, culture) Was that ever a topic of conversations with, like, your family, or did you ever you know, what was the dialogue surrounding that, or was it more like,(Subjects: civilrights, culture) You mean you mean for, how so?(Subjects: civilrights, culture) I mean I guess around, like, maybe desegregation or about civil rights. Was there you know, was anyone in your community for it or opposed to it?(Subjects: civilrights, culture) No. No. I don't think it was hardly even a topic of conversation Yeah. Other than what you'd hear on the news. Like I said, we didn't have any that live close. And so, you know, it isn't, you know, quite the same. Yeah. But I know, like, when the police pulled him over, that, you know, they were, like I said, predominantly Caucasian, and they discriminated. And, even in housing, you know, that, they couldn't move where they wanted and even if they had the money. Like, in most cases, I mean, you may even hear that about actors. I forget which one they brought up. Nat King Cole or something who bought a house in a predominantly Caucasian neighborhood, I think, which was, you know you hear that on the radio or stuff like that. You know?(Subjects: civilrights, culture) Yeah. No. That makes sense. Especially in an area with not many black people that, you know, it wouldn't really be that much of a topic of concern. That makes sense. I wanted to segue a little bit into, I know you were, deployed in Vietnam. Will you go into I wanna start with, I guess, the draft. We'll start with, how did you feel about the about the draft? How did, the people around you feel about the draft? Well, I had 3 good friends, and, I worked at a place a restaurant called the Valley Button. You know, we sold hamburgers and stuff like that. It wasn't an indoor restaurant. It was just an outside, like, a tasty freeze or something like that that Or In N Out Burger or whatever you wanna call it.(Subjects: personal) Yeah. And, the one I think was in the marines and the other one was in the army, and he told me no matter how shitty it is, 2 years is only 2 years. So he's just and the 2 of my friends went into marines, and that's 3 years. The other one in the air force, and that's 4 years. So I did what he said, and I just let him draft me.(Subjects: draft) Interesting. So it sounds like I guess, correct me if I'm wrong, but more or less, they believed it to be just kind of something that was going to happen, kind of get used to it.(Subjects: draft) That's right. You know, it's just something you had to accept. I didn't know anybody that went to Canada, but later on, of course, I was drafted in 66. But, you would hear people that went to Canada, and they didn't do anything or try to get them. And I don't remember what president or whatever would finally will say, what could you say, allow them to come back without any prison time or anything? And I don't remember what prison or when that it might have happened in the nineties. I don't know. Maybe even in the eighties. I'm not sure.(Subjects: draft) Interesting. So at least your in your community, there was not so much. But do you remember hearing any, like, anti draft sentiment or any, like, anti war sentiment in in the area?(Subjects: draft) No. Not really. You know? I mean, you just had to accept it and that was it.(Subjects: draft) Yeah.(Subjects: draft) You know? And you just got drafted. I was lucky in the school I went to. I think graduating class was only 50, and none of us and I think almost everybody went in to the service of one branch or the other. And none of us died in Vietnam. Very fortunate. One was pretty well injured. I don't know even maybe a little mentally, but, you know, all of us made it back. Unbelievable.(Subjects: personal, vietnam) That's really cool. My 60th reunion is tomorrow night, and then the following night is so, you know, my 60th reunion. Yeah. I don't know how many are going to show up. I didn't check with who's in charge. But, because he said a lot of them live in Nevada and, you know, live across the nation. So and for your 60th, who knows how many are going to show up?(Subjects: personal) Yeah. Well, that'll be fun. I hope you enjoy that. I was going to say, I guess, feelings about the war in general. Did they opposed to it more or less or just it sounded like more or less kind of neutral. Were they angry, or was anyone angry about, like, the reasons they were fighting? Did they kind of fully understand? Or? I think that it was just accepted, and that was it. At least where I am, I know there are there were some protests. Matter of fact, I can remember, it was up in (San Francisco) Frisco, and I don't know which college it was at, but they were protesting. And the Hells Angels, I think down here, volunteered to go up and break it up. No. And they said no. They would let him go up there. They were gonna take care of a protest up there on the war. You know? So and I knew some of the Hells Angels from where I worked. A few of them came in, I would see. Yep. Okay. I'll tell you a good story about one of them. I got to know a lot of the police well too, especially in Bellflower. And, one of them told me they caught a Hells Angel riding around the block, and he just put the engine and the frame together, and he caught them. No license, no nothing. He says, I wrote up stuff on that ticket that didn't even exist. You know, that's what he told me because I was I was in good with quite a few of the police.(Subjects: culture, civilrights) Interesting. That's a good story. Mhmm.(Subjects: communism) Okay. I will say, what was kind of the feelings about communism? Was that ever a topic of discussion? I know there was a lot of kind of, like, like, the lavender scare or the red scare, more feelings about communism. Was that ever a topic of discussion?(Subjects: communism) Not much. In the fifties, it wasn't so much communism, but scared of nuclear attacks and they taught you how you're supposed to go down and cover your head and get under your desk. Like that. No. I don't think communism was discussed too much. Although we did have, I think, in the in the late sixties, the Cuban crisis Yes. You know, which, you know, where we even blocked off, you know, with our, naval ships blocked off. So I guess nothing could get through to Cuba. I don't know if you know about that or not. And so, that was, you know, scary somewhat. But like I said, you know, we just heard about it and then, you know, went from there. And, as far as communism, no. I do remember something about oh, that was Reagan, and that would be in the eighties where he says tear down that wall. Like that.(Subjects: communism) So I do remember hearing a lot about, like, the nuclear drills. They would have kids in school, you know, tell them, get under your desk. You know? But was that, like, a common fear? I guess, you know, the average person, if it happens, there's not much you can do about it anyway. Was that ever like a was that a worry about nuclear war happening a lot?(Subjects: communism, culture) Believe it or not, just a couple blocks from me at that time, and I think they're doing it again, they were building I don't know what they cost. But in your backyard, they would build you a shelter or whatever you want(Subjects: communism) Oh, really?(Subjects: communism) Underground where you could get I don't know all the statistics on it back then, how much they cost or what all it consisted of. But I guess they felt since we lived in Southern California and all these aircraft corporations around Yeah. We would definitely be bombed. So probably nuclear. So, I know one place, you know, put it in. I you know, I'm a kid. Yeah. 14, 15 years old. And so, otherwise, I'd love to go over and take a look in it.(Subjects: communism) So Yeah. So some people were very scared of it. It sounds like a lot of people just more or less live with it, you know, thought there's nothing they could do about it anyway. Exactly. Okay. Well, getting into the draft, so I believe you've told me a story about how if you correct me if I'm wrong. If you volunteer, you get to kind of choose how, like, with the service you perform. Is that incorrect?(Subjects: draft) I think somewhat you could. Otherwise, if you volunteer for the draft, but you're not talk not draft, not for 2 years. I think you'd have to volunteer for 3. Oh, interesting. Depending on where you're going to, in order to get that. Not, you know, being drafted, they just do with what they want with you, but I was an exception. And that was and then I gotta tell you this. When I was drafted, they swore us in. There's, I don't know, 20 rows and 6 abreast. And they said the first two rows are going into the marines. Yeah. And I was in the 3rd row. So I got to go to the army instead of the marines.(Subjects: draft) Wow. Lucky you. Because that's an extra year or 2? Even if you went in the marines, if you're drafted, you only goes 2 years. You know, there's no difference in time. It's just that, you know, the well, you know. It's I'm everybody says "I'm an ex marine". You hear anybody say I'm ex army? No. It's so And so a marine. So, you know, they got more intense. Would say, you know, stuff like that.(Subjects: draft) Mhmm. So can you tell me the process of being drafted? Did you get something in the mail and then have to go somewhere? Yes. Well, when you turn 18, you have to go down and, to the draft board or where(Subjects: draft) (recording cut) So I'll just get back into it. I'm gonna rephrase, just the last question just in case it got cut off. I think the last thing it got was, you don't hear a lot of people saying I'm ex Army. You hear I'm ex Marine a lot. So I was gonna say the process of getting drafted, how that happened? Can you explain that?(Subjects: draft) Well, sure. I think it'd be the same no matter what you go into. I went down to LA. You know, I got my draft notice, went down there. They give you a physical and, you know, go through. Some people can, you know, once you pass I can't remember. I think I don't remember if we took the test then or not. No. I think don't think we took it till later. They just check you out physically and stuff like that and make sure, you know, that you're capable and, in good, you know, decent physical condition. When I went that's the first time, then they call you back to go when they take you. And since I went in the army, I went to Fort Ord, which is up close to Frisco along the coast. And I can remember a guy in front of me, and he must have went and got stretched because I think there's, like, a limit of 6 foot 6. They don't want anybody bigger than that. They don't have the clothes and the shoes and the stuff on. You see? And so, they asked them, well, you know, you're above going. Do you still wanna go in? He says, no. That's fine. I go because I didn't hear where you can go get stretched.(Subjects: draft) Really? Be surprised if yeah. I didn't hear that till the late seventies. And the only reason I heard that is a friend of mine, who was Japanese. His brother wanted to get into police force. He's about a half an inch too short. So he went and got stretched so he could pay to get in. Back then, they had a, let's say, a height limit of 5'9", let's say. I'm not sure.(Subjects: draft) Interesting. I'd never heard of that before. Was there was there a lot of people doing things to get in or at least out of being drafted?(Subjects: draft) Well, they do what they can. You know?(Subjects: draft) Yeah.(Subjects: draft) I don't know. Maybe he had a loan problem. You know how people do have, even at that age, have something wrong or something like that.(Subjects: draft) Yeah. Okay. Well, I guess I will say let's get into, so from the time you noticed, would do you remember when you got the notice that you were being drafted?(Subjects: draft) Oh, I imagine 2 months, 3 months before, something like that. It might be a long time before.(Subjects: draft) Okay.(Subjects: draft) And, you know, you know, and then I reported in and then went to Fort Ord and, did my basic, and we were restricted there because they had I forget what it was, but there was something going on to where we didn't really get to leave the barracks. And on one side, the windows the bottom windows were open, and on the other side of the barracks, the top windows were open. And it was colder than blazes because we're right on the ocean. And this was to cut down I you'd have to look it up to see what they had, but Ford had something that they had had before. So we were more or less restricted to everything. We couldn't do anything other than, you know, they take us and bring us back to our barracks, and that was it.(Subjects: draft) Interesting. So how long did you spend at the barracks before you were deployed?(Subjects: draft) Oh oh, No. You first you go to basic.(Subjects: draft) Oh, basic.(Subjects: draft) Basic. That's 8 weeks. Then they send you home for 2 weeks, I think it is. And then you go to AIT, which is advanced individual training. You know? And when you're in basic, you take all sorts of tests and stuff. And they asked me but they offered me all sorts of jobs, you know, things. And they said something about medic. I said, what I figured working in a hospital, women, this and that. I looked at it the other way and, you know, I went in for medic and they gave me medic. I found out my last couple months in the service why I got everything. I mean, even right down when I finished my events individual training, which was in Texas, that's where they trained medics, Fort Sam Houston, Texas. Everybody that I worked was in the service with me, you know, the medics and the doctor. They got me, a letter a form they wanted them to fill out. I was kind of a test individual to see if I would continue. You know, since they let me be what I wanted, this and that. (Subjects: draft) They even asked me when I finished AIT, advanced individual training, where did I wanna go, Alaska or Hawaii? Now you know I'm gonna say Hawaii. Who wants to go to Alaska? Then they said, in the states, where would you like to go? I said, from California. They said, what part of California would you like to go? I said southern, and they sent me to Fort Irwin, which is, you know, a 120 miles from or a 150 miles from where I live. But that's where the unit formed that I went to Vietnam with was there. So, I mean, they let me have everything, and then at the end, being a medic, they offered me a $6,000 to re up, but you have to join for 6 years to get that money. And I said, although I'm a striped troop, no. I'm a civilian. Alright. You know, you can keep this. I'm going home. So that been joined for 6 years, and I've been the equivalent of sergeant in less than 2 years.(Subjects: draft) Really? Or you could do 5, which is the same thing as a sergeant. The difference in pay is $1. And another cute thing, when you get drafted, you get $78 a month. And then when you make e 2, it was $89 a month. And when you get e 3, e 3 is when you have a corporal and you have the one stripe on your sleeve, a $121 a month. Now this is someone that's under 2 years. After 2 years, you get more money, but I don't know how much. I could ask a friend of somebody that, you know, that we were in together and we were medics. And he's in Alabama, and I talk to him every couple months. You know?(Subjects: draft, economy) Interesting. Sorry. I was gonna say, I never knew that you were more of a test case. So was that you were the test in the sense that they didn't ask everyone where they wanted to go? No. No. No. Just me. And I got what I asked for being a medic and where I even went. You know? And, except I did go to NAM. I didn't ask for that, but they, you know, gave me everything else there. And, like I said but, and I could have even been an officer.(Subjects: personal) Do you know why they chose you?(Subjects: personal) It depends on how you do on your tests. You know, but you have to go I can't remember how long OCS officers training school is. But the only thing, you would have you had to wait I didn't wanna be an officer. Okay? But it's you had to wait almost a year before you didn't get into officer school. And I forget if that was for 6 months or something. And then after you become an officer, you still have to serve your 2 years or whatever. So people, you know, if you wanna make the military your, and a couple lieutenants we have did, you know, they did that. They went to officer training school. I said, no. I just wanna go in and out. You know?(Subjects: personal) Yeah. Interesting. So actually getting to when you were actually deployed in Vietnam, can you describe what that was like?(Subjects: personal) Well, number 1, I was with the 6th and the 7th, 7th artillery, so it wasn't as bad as being in the infantry. And I went to, they sent a 100 troops in a in an advanced party to Vietnam with them, and then the 400 of us went onboard boat. We went over to Vietnam onboard ship, and I went on the USNS Gordon, which was a World War 2 military transport. It was 1966. I'm going on that to Vietnam, and it took, 23 days. We went through, well, what was nice, we did go through the Philippines, and it was beautiful. You know? I you know? The trip, I can't say I enjoyed it. And every morning, they would kick you out. At 8 in the morning, you had to go topside till noon. Whether it was raining or whatever, you had to go to noon. I'm still outside. Then you get back for lunch and then, I guess, whatever else you could do. You know? But, but, I know for at least 2 weeks going across, they had what we call the JC flick, the Jesus Christ, you know, movie, and it was Protestant. But we go down because you'd sit down below and you'd watch, on Jesus Christ, the whole movie from the beginning on through on Jesus Christ. So that's what we did every morning. I don't know if it was like for an hour, hour and a half. I don't remember for sure, but rather than staying topside Yeah.(Subjects: vietnam, religion) I'm sure it's better than nothing. Yeah. Better than getting rained on or something. And they did have a, what was it, a PX will say onboard ship. So if you're tired of that junk, you could go get something to eat. I'm not saying a dinner, but, you know, you could buy, you know, certain things, you know, to help you fill up. You didn't wanna eat that. So and so I was on board ship for, 23 days, and, we go into the Philippines, into Sumic Bay. They let us off base, from, like, 9 in the morning till 10 at night or 9 at night, maybe 12 hours. They didn't let us off base. You could had to stay on base, but at least, you know, you were free to roll in, which was nice.(Subjects: vietnam) What was, what was kind of the attitude towards, you know, being on a on a boat to Vietnam among everyone there? What was what was it kind of like? Was it-(Subjects: vietnam) No. It I played, cards almost every day on topside, and we had one guy who we, playing, and he'd win all the time. And I think, yeah, I mean, I just he was too good. Whatever it was. So but, yeah. And I ran across the guy, you know, because you meet them from all over. There's I forget how many onboard ship. I don't remember how many. Maybe 3000 or 4000. I don't remember. But, he lived in Bellflower. He just lived a mile and a half away from where I was. You know? He was married and lived in an apartment.(Subjects: vietnam) Interesting. So once you landed, what was it like? What happened next? We got off just like you see in World War 2. We crawled, on the ship. We came down the net. We then got into a, a boat or a landing craft. Not that there was any fire or anything like that, you know, and went to, and landed on the shore. You know, they took us right up and dropped it. I don't think I don't even know if our peak got wet or not. I don't recall. And, the thing about it is my daughter, Suzanne, has went to Vietnam, and she went to Cu Chi, and that's where they have the museum for Vietnam. Everybody goes to Cu Chi, and her boyfriend found my picture getting off the, you know, the landing small landing craft onto the onto the shore, which is fantastic.(Subjects: media, vietnam) That's unbelievable. 45 years later after that picture, and he found it. And so she sent me that, and that is me. You know? I even sent it to my friend Walker in Alabama. And, he said, yeah. That's you. There's no doubt about it. I mean, and it it's a good picture. But they have different pictures up, and they luckily saw that. I never expected them to even have a picture of that because we were not base camp or anything. We were at, like I said, just a landing grab getting off.(Subjects: personal, media) Well, I will say, would you describe some of, maybe what your daily routine looked like while you were in Vietnam?(Subjects: personal, vietnam) Well, it depends. We were, at base camp, and our base camp was Cu Chi, spelled c u c h I, and, two words. And, there, I was a medic, so anybody had a problem, they would just come in, and we had a doctor. Both doctors that I was with were both drafted just like I was, and they served 2 years. And the one was 26 years old. Can you imagine he became a doctor? 56, and he wanted to be a orthopod. You know? And, they gave him and said, no. We've let you go through and become a doctor. You'll have to wait till after you serve your 2 years to go back and become an ortheopath.(Subjects: personal, vietnam) So an orthopath?(Subjects: personal, vietnam) Orthopedic specialist.(Subjects: personal, vietnam) Oh. Oh, gotcha.(Subjects: personal, vietnam) That's what he wanted to be. So he had the other doctor, and he was 26, the other doctor we had was 31 years old. You know, he was married and had a kid or 2 and what have you. Both nice guys. So in in base camp, which our base camp was a mile by a mile, and I have beautiful pictures of the whole base camp. And, we would just take care of, you know, normal stuff. And if anybody's serious, we'd send them to the hospital in, on base. You know, we'd have regular big hospital. And what was nice being medics and where we were, you know, our, where the 6th and 77th was, we had a bakery across the street. We had an ice plant that we got good with. They made the I don't think no. I think they made the ice in either bakery, made bread, the ice plant, and, oh, a laundry facility right across the street from where we were. So being medics, they come over. If they need a shot, we give them a shot. Anytime we want anything like that in base camp, we get it. And I got pictures of us with a party at the at the at the ice plant, you know, the guy there. And now we would go, then they'd send us out to the field.(Subjects: personal, vietnam) Most of the artillery, there was 3 artillery. What did they call it now? It was we had supply headquarters. I was with headquarters. Supply is another battery. Then we have a, b, and c, and that's where the guns are. 6 guns in each one. Okay? And so what they do is take us out to the field, the whole unit. And that's when, we went out to clean a hobo in Lobo Woods. Now we would come back to base camp and, one cute story is since I was also the clerk typist, I could type. Nobody else could, so I got to be the clerk typist. And that's what I do in the morning. I was, at the desk or, you know, when anybody come through. And, and I take care I had to take a report from the doctor that no matter where we were, I would fly into base camp, retype that up, and send it over to the, surgeon general, which was on, you know, on base. I think there was 10,000 on our base.(Subjects: personal, vietnam) That's a lot of troops. In Cu Chi. So it just so happens, and no matter I fly in the colonel's helicopter. I fly whatever was going to bait back to base camp. I get the plane, and I have good pic a lot of pictures. And, I mean, we'd fly all the time, but we'd fly in these Chinooks with the twin rotors. You've seen those helicopters?(Subjects: media, vietnam) Yeah. We've in those, you usually they load us up and carry the guns too, you know, underneath. And, the Chinooks would hold 9,000lbs, and they had flying cranes, which was you've seen with just one big chopper. It would it could hold 18,000lbs. Wow. I would fly back and forth. So it just so happens, this one time the doctor had to go back with me to basecamp to do this. The Bob Hope show was on. So we landed. We both went to the Bob Hope show, and that's when they had Raquel Welch. So I got to see Raquel Welch in Vietnam. That would be the 19 67, thing.(Subjects: media, culture) That's really cool. It was a live show? Oh, yeah. Bob Hope, you know, he every year, he would go and take people and put the show on for the troops. You didn't know about that? I did not. I think I'd heard of it before that, you know, they would come and have people do live shows for the troops. But that's really cool. Would tour for, I don't know, a month or something like that and go to different base camps and put out and Raquel Welch was with them. You know? And I have pictures of her on stage and everything. I took my camera, which was great. And, the other thing, like I said, we would treat patients that came in, and most of the time, what the troops would catch was, the urethritis acute gonococcus, better known as gonorrhea. And we had this nice sergeant. He was a little chubby, about 27, 28. And, he came in and he caught he caught gonorrhea. We called it the clap, you know. And so, I love, you know, comedy a little, and I like to joke around. So he, you get 2 penicillin shots, 1 in the morning, 1 at night for 3 days. And, you come in, we cannot we don't have to tell when you're sergeant or anything what you're in for. You just came in for treatment. You know? So he came in and I, a nice guy. So I thought, well, what I did is I got a irrigating syringe and I pulled it down, and I put a big 16 gauge needle on it. You know? And as he's taking his pants down, and he's looking at me, and we all busted up laughing. You know? But he thought we were really gonna give him that. And the other guy was, you know, medic was standing there with with the regular penicillin shot.(Subjects: media, culture, vietnam) That's like a giant syringe. Right? The one that you were pretending? Clean your ear with. Oh, yeah. That's an irrigating syringe. And I put a needle on it. It wasn't even straight. It was leaned over a little because it just wouldn't sit straight. But he thought that was it. He started dropping his pants and looking at it. You know? That's pretty funny. So Uh-huh. Okay. And one time out in the field, we had a problem with somebody, and, the doctor said, you know, take him down, get him going on the next chopper going in. I walked the patient down there, and I said the doc wants to have flown in. Well, this and that, whatever (Officer disagrees). I say, no problem. I went back and got the doctor. The doc all doctors are captains. Okay. Doctor came down. He said, you put this guy on the chopper now. Yes, sir. You know, when I asked him, he wouldn't do it, but the doc came down and said, you put him on now.(Subjects: personal, vietnam) And they listened? That's right.(Subjects: vietnam) So Wow. So did you spend a lot of your time at base or in the field? Would they would you take, like, a vehicle? Would you fly out?(Subjects: vietnam) Oh oh, no. When we were in the field, we didn't take vehicles. We you know? And matter of fact, I'm trying to think. What was it? I think we get breakfast from the mess hall, but lunch and dinner was flown in on helicopter.(Subjects: vietnam) Oh, really?(Subjects: vietnam) They would send, at least, containers with the food to feed everybody, you know, on that. No. I spent quite a bit of time in the field, but, you know, 2 or 3 weeks or whatever and go back and then maybe another couple weeks and and stuff like that. You know? But I wasn't in the field constantly, though. Yeah.(Subjects: vietnam) So what basically, when you were, doing your medic duties, what did that kind of include when you when someone was injured or what was, like, a common thing that you would treat people for? Usually, we didn't have that much. I mean, we did get a few that were injured and, you know, shot. And, what could I say? We would just do the best we could with them, bandage them up and what have you, give them an IV if it was necessary, and we call them a helicopter and they fly them out. We don't mess with them. You know? They go Yeah. You know? That's what we would do. Mhmm.(Subjects: vietnam) So just doing mostly the best that you could for them and sending them to a doctor if need be? Yep. You send them into the hospital, you know, whatever to emergency. They put them on a chopper and, just ship them out. You know, that that's what happened. We didn't have a lot of injuries. You know? So, what ours was up in the field, we would get mortar and rocket attacks. Yeah. We would set up. It wasn't just us. I mean, at one time, we always had 105 howitzers. They had bars. They had 155. (Mortars, guns) We were circled by, you know, a big circle in the jungle. What we were doing was supporting these wrong plows to cut down the jungle is what we were doing. In those cases. And I just got to go to a, because you know the trench were in Vietnam prior to us. 53, I think. The NBN II was where I think they made a I got to go to a, French fort, a small fort, yep, one time. And I didn't take a few pictures of it as best as could. You know? So that's it.(Subjects: vietnam) You've mentioned a lot about taking pictures. Did you have, like, a lot of free time to take pictures, or was it more in between when you had, like, patients you had. No. We didn't always have patients. Yeah. Like, we're not busy all the time. Oh, no. Like, if I was in the chopper, I take pictures. Even the other medics would take pictures. We're out in the field. I mean, we get shot at in mortars and stuff, and I can remember one time we got a call and I answered the phone. Be advised we're under attack. Can you imagine that? That's how the guy put it. And what he meant was there was mortars coming in. Yeah.(Subjects: media, vietnam) So Was that a pretty common thing? What were the kind of feelings about it? Was everyone very worried? Well, heck, yeah. You run, now what we would do, the medics and, you know, since we we were individuals that compared to the other groups, we had our group of 6 and whatever. We would build as soon as we got in, we would build cubicles for us. You know, there was 6 of us, so we built 6 little, 3 by 3 out of sandbags. It might take us you know, it doesn't matter. I mean, like, we're going anywhere. We'd have this, and we use that. So in case of an attack, you go and hide in there. And, you know, so that's what you do. You'd have a retreat. And one time and, we were I forget quite remember where we were, but, there was a underground bunker, we'll say, that was already built where we were at. And we gotta think, we're under attack. I said, doc, we're under attack. Yeah. I said, I gotta get over there. You know? He says no, you get under. And right where I was gonna go, the mortar landed.(Subjects: vietnam, personal) Wow. I would might have been dead or injured. I kept telling, I have my what the heck did they call it? My otherwise wound where I get to go home and nothing wrong. But, I still have one spot. I was more or less surprised when you said that. You know, you didn't have, like, a lot of injuries. Were you just talking about the I was in the artillery. We're not in the infantry. The infantry is where you get a lot more, you know, when they're out in the field. Although they did send us out in the field a couple times when we're there, like, some colonel, captain, or something gets the idea, they want us to go through out into the jungle and look for stuff. And everybody said goodbye to me because no one knows if you're coming back. And we were, nothing happened, and we found 25,000lbs of rice or something out there, you know, that they were hiding through the Viet Cong. You know, just traipsing through the jungle. But mainly, we just got dropped in by helicopters, and then our area was secure. Although, one time, the vehicle did try to attack, and these 105 howitzers are good for 8 miles. They have shotgun rounds where they just lower the barrel straight, and they put in these rounds, and it's just like shooting a shotgun.(Subjects: vietnam) What was, I was gonna say, the rhetoric around you guys knowing that you might have to kill people if it comes down to it and constantly fighting for your life? Were people kind of under the- Just accept it. That's how it is. Yeah. You know? So I can hardly ever remember anybody, you know, being the other way. I know sometimes I pull in that bunker and, you know, I'll call, you know, our little cubicle with sandbag. And, I crawled up into a little ball because I think that stuff is coming down so close. And if anybody gets injured, then we have to go, you know, treat them and send them out. Yeah. But the doctor is there also. So, I mean, we do the best we can to bring them back to him. You know, I was mainly with the doctor at all times. That makes sense. One thing I was wondering is, did religion play, any kind of role? I remember you talking about, the movies about Jesus Christ when you were on the transport. Was there was religion a big part of your life or around the community?(Subjects: religion) Not a big part of my life, but, yeah, you know, when we had it, I would kind of go to church and so would the others or, you know, we had a Catholic priest come out, you know, whatever. I didn't go to church every Sunday at base camp. No. You know, I don't think most of us did. Some of them, you know, you know, like that. But in base camp, we have a church. And, I mean, in base camp, we had everything. We had a pool hall, everything. Just, you know, px's (cafeteria) and, you know, and like I say, our camp is big, a mile by a mile. I'll have to bring my pictures and show you sometime.(Subjects: religion) I would love to see those! The reason why I have so many printers is, believe it or not, my sergeant that I had, sergeant Pelfrey was from Germany. And he came over and got drafted and came over as a kid. I get I don't remember how old he was, but he, oh, he had worked in the cafeteria or something during World War 2. And he, you know, a little something, whatever, helping. And, he came home with a certificate, you know, they gave him. And when he brought it home, his mother tore it up. She thought if the Americans come through and see something like that, they'll kill us. Yeah. That's what we say. I don't know how I don't remember how old he was when he came to America.(Subjects: media, personal, communism) Interesting. Just sometime in between World War 2 and Vietnam? Pardon? Sometime in between World War 2 and Vietnam? Oh, yeah. After World War 2. So maybe in the fifties, and then he got drafted. He just stayed in and made his career. You know? That's really cool he got you into taking pictures. I just wanted to ask some more questions, kind of just about your personal life. It doesn't have to be specifically about Vietnam, but a couple things. Around the time, this could be before or after, what was dating like? Were you in a relationship before, after Vietnam? I was actually in a relationship before I shipped over. I've known her for about 6 months. And sure enough, I got well, you know, what is my name? John*? So what do you think I got all the time? Dear John*.(Subjects: culture, media) Oh, dear John*. You never hear of dear John* letters? No. Oh, dear John* is like, dear John*, you know, we're breaking up and this and that. That's what they call the dear John* letter. I did I did get a dear John* letter after a few months.(Subjects: media) You did get a breakup letter? Yes. I did. That's unfortunate. Believe it or not, 2 months later or something, who do I get a package from? You see, I met Janice in Blenda at 65. And I did see Janice before I went to Nam, though, I, also was seeing and her name was Suzanne. And so I don't know why Janice let me name my daughter Suzanne? But, not that it was that big a breakup. No big deal.(Subjects: personal, media, dating) Just to clarify, Janice is your wife, and you have a daughter named Suzanne.(Subjects: personal, media) Yes. Exactly. Exactly. And Suzanne knows it.(Subjects: personal, media) Janice told her a few years back and she said, I hope I never meet her. Too bad, you know.(Subjects: personal, media) So after you got back from Vietnam, did you start you started dating grandma Janice?(Subjects: personal, media) No. Grandma Janice got engaged to my best friend. I'm the one that met her in 65, her and Glenda. Oh, they even sent me, a care package, you know, for Christmas and stuff, and she'd write letters. And, well, she got engaged to George. It was my best friend that was in the marines. Oh, I came then he went to Vietnam. You know? And so she was home, but that that isn't what did it. I, you know, but she eventually broke up. She was gonna send him a dear John* letter. I said, you know, just wait till he gets back and, you know, give it to him. You know? So, so that's what happened there. But now no, I had another girlfriend or 2 in between. There was Jackie. There was Marilyn. And, no. Bellflower was fantastic for cruising and women. I mean, the different girls I met. You know? So I got what if you if you wanna hear a good one. We were, pulled over on Boulevard. This is before we went to service. And, you know, it was heavy cruising. You know? (Subjects: personal, media, dating) And, like, you know what I mean by cruising. All the cars going by back and forth. It was about a mile, mile and a half. We had an A and W that you pulled into. And we pulled over with, to talk to a friend and his fiancée. And Jurgen and I got in the back seat. You know, it was a 2 door. We're both sitting there. I got on the driver's side. He got on the passengers. But we're sitting on Bellflower Boulevard. They're just, you know, maybe 50 feet or a 100 feet from the light. And when we're done talking, I said, why don't you go come up here? You know, so y'all can come back and pick up some women, you know, jokingly. And so Jurgen got out the driver the passenger side. I got out the driver side, and there's a girl in a car in a Chrysler by herself. I put out my thumb like a hitchhiker, and she'll unlock the door. I got in the car. This guy sees it and so does Jurgen, and I left him there. But all we did is cruise down, whatever got her number, come back, and then I got Jurgen. But you see what I'm saying? I did this in front of my in front of Jurgen and in front of this guy and his fiancée.(Subjects: personal, culture, dating) Well done. That's pretty smooth. I was gonna say, what were some things you guys did, like, going on dates? I know you mentioned drive ins. Yeah. We go to the drive in, and I can remember I took a couple girls to oh, you go to Disneyland, Knott's Berry Farm. At that time, you've been to Knott's. But back in the sixties until up to 65, you could get into Knott's Berry Farm for free, and then you just pay and you just pay for whatever ride you wanna go on. But you can walk around it. And, I don't know if I ever told you, but I I've been married three times.(Subjects: dating, culture) Really? Yeah. Twice at Knott's Berry Farm by judge Roy Bean, but I got screwed on the honeymoon both times. You know? So once you go in and for a buck or something, he'd give you a marriage certificate and supposedly marry you?(Subjects: dating, culture) Oh, that's very good. Janice has that. I married her and not married her at Knotts Berry Farm. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. So 3 marriages, not too bad. Yeah. (recording cuts) Anything you wanted to mention that you had before I lose you? Like I said oh, the reason why I have so many pictures is my sergeant is the one that talked me into getting the camera. And I bought a Pentex Spott Matic in Vietnam at the PX, and we're talking it was a $100.(Subjects: economy, media) Wow. That's expensive. Yes. And, Stanley (Brother), I got him a camera that was a 100 and a quarter, even better. And and Penntek's Photomatix was the first time you could get a camera where it had the light meter inside. Before, you had to take, you know, get the light meter reading to take the picture. That and that's why I took I took 300 slides in Vietnam. Out in the field and this and that and whatever. He talked me into it and so did. But I gotta tell you another thing. Walker, Richard Wade Walker is from Alabama, and we were in Nam together, you know, all the time. And but he stated he had joined. And our our favorite saying was, we advance to the rear. Advance to the rear. We don't retreat. We advance to the rear. You know?(Subjects: media, vietnam) That's pretty good. That's pretty good. And, we everybody flies back from Vietnam to home, you know, or to Frisco. And, when I came back, Jurgen, who I've known since I was 13 years old, and, was right there where we drove back. And I got his phone number, and so his gave him a day off or 2. They came and picked me up, took me over and showed his barracks and stuff because we're there for a day or 2 until we ship out. Yeah. Oh, and if you really wanna hear something that's freaky, you could not leave base camp unless you had your helmet, your flak vest, your rifle, and everything. Okay? Never they'd let you leave base camp. When they take you down to, Saigon or even Saigon, the other town next to it, they put you on a bus and you don't have nothing. And then you could that bus or do whatever. Oh. Can you imagine that? I couldn't believe it. Here, you have all that and then they put you on a bus. I don't think I've ever heard of a bus being shot at, but I don't know. You know, you don't necessarily hear all the information. You know?(Subjects: vietnam) Interesting. Did you ever interact with, civilians while you were in Vietnam? Yes. I was in charge of the sandbag dollies for the last month. Okay. Every yeah. Sandbag dollies. What do you what does that mean? Okay. They were young you know, women, young, some young, middle age, or older, and I would go pick them up rather than going out and being shot out in the any jungle or whatever. They let me be in charge of the sandbag dollies. I got out I got to come home before the rest of them because when I went to, I only had 10 and a half months to do. Army does 12 months, marine do 13 months. And so, I would go pick them up every morning, and I just stay with them, and they would fill sandbags to put all over, you know, whatever they needed and, you know, to for a building or what have you. And they call them sandbag dollies. And I got pictures of the sandbag dollies, and that's what I did every day for, I don't know, 2 or 3 weeks or something like that rather than going out and possibly getting shot.(Subjects: vietnam, personal) Yeah. That's a pretty good deal. Did they speak any English at all, or were you just kind of there to keep an eye? Yeah. A little. And matter of fact, come to think of it, the barber we would go to a Vietnamese barber on base. They had brought all these people in on base to do the jobs. You know? And, I'll have to tell you another good one too. I told the lieutenant or captain. But the barber that cut my hair, I swear he smoked marijuana while he's cutting my hair. You know?(Subjects: culture, vietnam) Well thank you for sitting down and talking to me about this, Grandpa. I Really appreciate it, it was really cool hearing about all of this. Of course. Of course. Well I love you, I hope you got all the information you needed. I think so! That was great. Have a good one, I love you too.


Contents

Jane Beebe, Ron Beebe

Line 0
Silas Beebe: Okay, it should be going. Let me get a secondary recording going just in case.
Line 1
Ron Beebe: Now it says this meeting is being recorded and I have to click okay, I guess.
Line 2
Silas Beebe: Alright.
Line 3
Ron Beebe: Wait a minute, I lost your voice.
Line 4
Ron Beebe: You there?
Line 5
Silas Beebe: Yes, there is my microphone working all right?
Line 6
Ron Beebe: Okay, so I don't we don't have to keep our heads close together, you know what we look like, you just want to get the message of what we're saying.
Line 7
Silas Beebe: Yeah, yeah, exactly, just the words are the most important part. So to start, we have just a little bit of an oral consent form I'm just going to run through really quick and just have you guys agree to it if that's all right. So let me just read it aloud and and let me know if that's all right.
Line 8
Silas Beebe: Participation in this project is voluntary. You may withdraw from the project at the end of the interview or at any time. Duration of the interview will only last up to 60 minutes. It doesn't have to be that long. But the interview will be recorded and transcribed. A copy of each will be made available to both of you. The recording of the interview may contain material which you hold copyright. You may transfer copyright of this material to University of Idaho if you so choose.
Line 9
Silas Beebe: Transcriptions will be made available to the entire class for research purposes, and they will then be preserved by our special collections and archives. And the University of Idaho students, faculty and staff, as well as researchers visiting the special collections and archives may use the interview for research, educational, promotional, or other purpose deemed appropriate. Does that all sound good to you guys?
Line 10
Ron Beebe: Yes. Of course. Wonderful,
Line 11
Silas Beebe: thank you so much, appreciate that. Well, let's hop right into it. What year were each of you guys born?
Line 12
Ron Beebe: Okay, I was born March 9th, 1942.
Line 13
Jane Beebe: G: Okay. And I was born in 1944.
Line 14
Silas Beebe: S:Okay, wonderful. So you both be what?
Line 15
Ron Beebe: Grammy is 80 and I'm 82. Okay, okay.
Line 16
Silas Beebe: So Pop, you were like 18 going into 1960 and Grammy, you were 16?
Line 17
Jane Beebe: Yes.
Line 18
Silas Beebe: Okay, very cool. So not far off on my age. So what was that like starting off your lives right into the 1960s?
Line 19
Ron Beebe: That was a fun year, I thought, because I graduated from high school in 1960. And, um, I was going to go off to college and I did for six months and it wasn't for me.
Line 20
Silas Beebe: Okay.
Line 21
Ron Beebe: And then I went right to work.
Line 22
Silas Beebe: Wow. Uh, where did you go?
Line 23
Ron Beebe: Insurance company, insurance company of North America, which was in Philadelphia.
Line 24
Silas Beebe: Okay, okay. I think when my dad and I watched the film Philadelphia, he showed me one of the buildings. He said Pop worked at an insurance company there that I thought was pretty cool.
Line 25
Ron Beebe: Yeah.
Line 26
Silas Beebe: And how long were you with the insurance company?
Line 27
Ron Beebe: 32 years full-time.
Line 28
Silas Beebe: Wow. Oh my goodness. That's a solid career.
Line 29
Ron Beebe: Yeah. I retired when I was 57 and they asked me to work part-time two days a week, a total of 14 hours a week.
Line 30
Silas Beebe: That's pretty good.
Line 31
Ron Beebe: And I did that for 10 years.
Line 32
Silas Beebe: Wow.
Line 33
Silas Beebe: And so Grammy, you would graduate high school in 1962 then?
Line 34
Jane Beebe: That's correct.
Line 35
Silas Beebe: So what kind of foods did you guys eat regularly growing up?
Line 36
Jane Beebe: We had, our, my dad was a blue collar worker. He was a sheet metal worker. So we grew up with meat and potatoes.
Line 37
Silas Beebe: Okay, nice. Yeah, absolutely. And Pop?
Line 38
Ron Beebe: Yeah, my family, I was the only child, but my dad had to have meat and he had to have potatoes. And he loved peas, which that's what I learned to hate.
Line 39
Silas Beebe: That's funny. I love peas. Were there any restaurants or diners you guys loved to visit in the 1960s?
Line 40
Jane Beebe: It was called the Hot Shops.
Line 41
Silas Beebe: The Hot Shops?
Line 42
Jane Beebe: Yeah, it was in the suburbs of Philadelphia. So it wasn't actually in Philadelphia. It was in Upper Darby, a suburb of Philadelphia.
Line 43
Ron Beebe: And it was a gathering place for young people. You would pull up and pull a tray over to your window.
Line 44
Ron Beebe: Okay. And speak your order in and then a young lady would bring it to you and you would sit there with it sitting on the tray. It was on a tray but it was hooked right to the side of your door where the window was.
Line 45
Silas Beebe: Absolutely that's cool. And what kind of food just like hamburgers and fries and stuff?
Line 46
Jane Beebe: Yeah milkshakes hamburgers typical teenage food. There was another I call it a fast food restaurant called ginos.
Line 47
Ron Beebe: and they would have sandwiches and hoogies and they would make steak sandwiches. But basically hamburgers. Hamburgers, yeah.
Line 48
It was kind of like the first McDonald's before McDonald's came out.
Line 49
Silas Beebe: I see, absolutely.
Line 50
Ron Beebe: It wasn't a chain, it was just a local shop.
Line 51
Silas Beebe: Oh, very cool. And now…
Line 52
And the more up-to-date and upscale restaurant was called Timbers.
Line 53
Ron Beebe: That's where Grammy and I had our wedding reception in 1965. They had steaks and all the stuff that wealthy people would eat.
Line 54
Jane Beebe: But you know, there was another one called Horn and Hard Arts. It was a very unique place where you put your money in a slot and then you'd open the window and the sandwiches or the desserts or whatever.
Line 55
Jane Beebe: were behind the window so you could look at all of the selections and then you put your money in and then you took out which one. And that was very unique for the time frame because you wouldn't see anything like that now.
Line 56
Silas Beebe: yeah, it was like a restaurant vending machine or something.
Line 57
Ron Beebe: That's what it was. Yeah, absolutely. Yep. But that was always cool. That was kind of our family place to go because it was like you had all these selections right in front of you to pick from.
Line 58
Silas Beebe: So did you guys both grow up in the Philly area?
Line 59
Ron Beebe: I grew up in Southwest Philadelphia.
Line 60
Silas Beebe: Okay.
Line 61
Jane Beebe: And I grew up in Overbrook. Which would be in West Philadelphia.
Line 62
Silas Beebe: And now over the course of the 1960s, did you guys see any shift in the way like restaurants did business or how food was prepared?
Line 63
Ron Beebe: I think there were more and more fast food places that started opening up and they were everywhere.
Line 64
Jane Beebe: Yeah, I remember when I was growing up a very unique pharmacy that you could go into and they had booze and you could get ice cream served there or you could get sandwiches served there in a pharmacy. Which was very unique.
Line 65
Silas Beebe: And now have you guys always gone to church?
Line 66
Jane Beebe: I was in church from the time I was born.
Line 67
Silas Beebe: Wow, and Pop the same?
Line 68
Ron Beebe: No, neither my mother or father went to church, but my mother made sure that I went to church and would drop me off at the church. But I rarely stayed for the service. We would take up collection at the church.
Line 69
Ron Beebe: and we would sneak off to a restaurant to have coffee and pie and then come back in time to take the collection. But I didn't learn much by going to church in those days.
Line 70
Silas Beebe: And how has going to church and just religion in general had a positive impact on your guys' lives?
Line 71
Jane Beebe: Well, it changed our view from a different worldview as far as how we should be living our lives and the values that we had. And again, it was based on what God's Word had to say that we tried to live that way and apply it to our lives. That would be what I would say.
Line 72
Ron Beebe: Absolutely. And I think values change over time. When we got married in 1965 and started attending church together, we learned values from the different churches that we were
Line 73
Ron Beebe: And that began to shape our outlook on what was right, what was wrong. And it helped us to notify, identify things that people were doing that were not according to what the Bible had to say.
Line 74
Ron Beebe: So from that standpoint, it began to shape our outlook on life.
Line 75
Silas Beebe: Very cool. so how did you guys meet if you married in 1965?
Line 76
Jane Beebe: Well, when I was in high school, when I was a senior, they had a program called a co-op program. So I was not in the college of, I don't know, root or whatever you would call it, track, that's it. I was in what they called the clerical track. And so they gave us the opportunity that I worked at Insurance Company of North America one week and then the next week I went to school. So I ended up working at the insurance company North America. And then once I graduated, because I had already been employed there, they offered me a position. And so then I ended up taking that position.
Line 77
Silas Beebe: Wow. Okay.
Line 78
Ron Beebe: And I had already graduated from high school when I was looking for a job and started to work for the insurance company of North America in a clerical position.
Line 79
Ron Beebe: And that's where Grammy and I met, because we were in the same department, not in the same unit, but the same department.
Line 80
Silas Beebe: Very cool. How long after you guys met did you start dating?
Line 81
Jane Beebe: Well, I graduated in 1962 and then 1963 was when we started dating. Yep. I guess it was probably a couple of months afterward because Grammy was into roller skating and I was too and there was a roller skating rink and we knew each other from work. But then we bumped into each other at the roller skating rink. And then we started skating around together at the roller skating rink. And then eventually we started to date. Very cool.
Line 82
Silas Beebe: And then you'd get married in 1965. So when did you ask Grammy to get married, Pop?
Line 83
Ron Beebe: In 1964. And we waited a year to get married to save up some money. And
Line 84
Ron Beebe: just to make sure that we were gonna be compatible. We continued dating quite often all throughout that time.
Line 85
Silas Beebe: Very cool. What was the...
Line 86
Ron Beebe: Lost your voice.
Line 87
Silas Beebe: Okay. So what was the proposal like, Pop? Where'd you ask her to marry you?
Line 88
Ron Beebe: It was in a glider on the front porch. Oh, the back porch. Oh, the front porch. It was right there in the front porch, right at the street level. And I asked her to marry me and said yes.
Line 89
Ron Beebe: I'm losing, I can't hear you right now. Now I lost you, now we lost you.
Line 90
Silas Beebe: I'm losing my audio. Course with Zoom. Okay, that should be better now.
Line 91
Silas Beebe: Oh my goodness.
Line 92
Jane Beebe: Now you're back. You're back.
Line 93
Silas Beebe: All right, I'm back.
Line 94
Silas Beebe: Just covering the proposal.
Line 95
Ron Beebe: Yeah, so, yeah, so I asked Grammy to marry me and she said yes.
Line 96
Ron Beebe: And we, I think we told my mother first and then we told your mother and father. Which was not good.
Line 97
Silas Beebe: So how different...
Line 98
Ron Beebe: I lost your voice again.
Line 99
Silas Beebe: Oh my goodness, one sec.
Line 100
Ron Beebe: Yeah, now you're back. I don't know, seems to go in and out.
Line 101
Silas Beebe: Okay. All right. Do you read me now?
Line 102
Ron Beebe: Yes, we can hear you.
Line 103
Silas Beebe: Okay. I think we should be good. I think my microphone was just unplugging a little bit. So I reconnected it. So we should be good now. So how different was it for you guys to buy like groceries and gas and other essentials compared to today?
Line 104
Ron Beebe: P: Well, I know I didn't have to buy any groceries because I lived at home. And my mother took and father took care of that.
Line 105
Ron Beebe: But the one thing I remembered is I had a car when I was 16. Yeah. And the price of gas was 25 cents a gallon.
Line 106
Silas Beebe: Wow. That is wild.
Line 107
Ron Beebe: For a dollar, I could fill up and my friends and I could go riding all around for a dollar.
Line 108
Silas Beebe: That's really cool.
Line 109
Silas Beebe: So what car did you have when you were 16?
Line 110
Ron Beebe: I had a 48 Hudson.
Line 111
Silas Beebe: And so how much were you making when gas was 25 cents a gallon?
Line 112
Ron Beebe: Um, I really wasn't working at the time until after I finished high school. Yeah. But, um, I think it was, uh, $2,600 a year. Okay. $4,800 a year. Yeah. When I first started out, that's the small amount. But one thing that was very unique where I grew up was.
Line 113
Ron Beebe: there were grocery stores on various corners because a lot of people didn't have cars. Yeah. And so local shopping was very popular. There really weren't any big supermarkets close to where I lived. And we used to have a wagon that we would pull to the grocery store and then load the wagon up and bring it back home again.
Line 114
Silas Beebe: Wow. So like no plastic grocery bags or anything. You could take the wagon and that's wild, that's cool.
Line 115
Ron Beebe: The one thing I remembered is going to the grocery store. Well, it's small corner stores. There was one close to us and you could go in and buy a tasty cake, which is something that's still in existence today.
Line 116
Silas Beebe: I like a tasty cake. Tasty cakes are good. I like the chocolate and peanut butter ones.
Line 117
Ron Beebe: the tasty cake crimpet was 15 cents and you got three in the package. And if you bought a pie, it was a quarter. It was a small pie in a cardboard box with cellophane across the seal. They were mostly fruit pies.
Line 118
Silas Beebe: So my dad told me, Pop, that he's always told me that you were in the Air Force. What year did you join?
Line 119
Ron Beebe: I joined in 1961.
Line 120
Ron Beebe: I had gone to college for six months and I had a major of accounting and I failed accounting. So I figured, well, that wasn't for me. So I enlisted in the Air Force to learn a trade. And when I signed up, I was supposed to be a telephone poleman. But of course, the military has other ideas. You fill the need that they have at the time. And I became a painter.. I painted houses. I painted trucks. I painted airplanes.
Line 121
Silas Beebe: Yeah.
Line 122
Ron Beebe: Painted lines down for the airplanes to land on, on the flight line.
Line 123
Silas Beebe: Wow. I didn't know that. That's, that's cool.
Line 124
Silas Beebe: What was your experience of joining like? Did you have to go through like training and all that?
Line 125
Ron Beebe: I had to go to basic training in Lackland Air Force Base, Texas. And it was in the September timeframe and it was extremely hot.
Line 126
Silas Beebe: Yeah, I can only imagine.
Line 127
Ron Beebe: There was a hurricane coming through and we were on standby to help people that had damage done as a result of the hurricane, but we never had to go anywhere.
Line 128
Silas Beebe: Wow. So how long were you in the Air Force total?
Line 129
Ron Beebe: Well, a little background before my father died after he came out and visited me where I was stationed in Salina, Kansas. Yeah. And he died of a heart attack while he was there. And my mother
Line 130
Ron Beebe: and she was having psychological problems as a result of the loss and I was the only child. So a family doctor called me and asked me to see if I could get out of the military and after three years I had a hardship discharge to come home to be with mom.
Line 131
Excerpt Redacted
Line 132
Silas Beebe: So during the time you would have been in Kansas, the Cuban Missile Crisis of course, of course occurred in 1962. What do you remember from that?
Line 133
Ron Beebe: Well, that was the base that I was assigned to had what they called KC 97 air refueling planes, which were prop and they had B 47s, which were bombers. And there was a wing of each, but during the Cuban Missile Crisis, all the bombers took off and were flown to.
Line 134
Ron Beebe: somewhere in Texas and Florida, and all the air refueling planes from other squadrons came to our base. And you weren't allowed to leave the base, you had to stay there. Yeah. And there were restrictive areas that you couldn't go into. They had what they called military police with German Shepherd dogs that make sure you didn't go in a place you weren't supposed to. But it was, everybody was very busy and
Line 135
Ron Beebe: You didn't leave the base at all. And we didn't know whether war was going to turn out or not.
Line 136
Silas Beebe: Grammy, what do you remember from that time?
Line 137
Jane Beebe: I don't remember anything. *she laughs*
Line 138
Silas Beebe: That's all right.
Line 139
Jane Beebe: I wasn't a part of my life because what was that, 1962?
Line 140
Jane Beebe: So I was in school. So I was just totally oblivious to what was happening around me. Yeah, absolutely. I was busy having fun.
Line 141
Silas Beebe: Yeah, oh my goodness, that's wild. Yeah.
Line 142
Silas Beebe: So then, that would lead into the Vietnam War pretty quickly. What do you remember from that?
Line 143
Ron Beebe: I remember there were some guys that were in the area that I was in, and they wanted to go to Vietnam. And they had to qualify shooting a 45 automatic handgun.
Line 144
Ron Beebe: And what I remember is the one young man that wanted to go really bad, failed the test three times before he finally could hit the target at that time. And then he went off to Vietnam and I lost track of him. But very few of the people on the base that I was located at went, was mostly army and Navy that was involved in Vietnam. Airforce pilots, but not the everyday ordinary airmen.
Line 145
Silas Beebe: Grammy, what do you remember from the Vietnam War?
Line 146
Jane Beebe: Very little impact. Not many of my friends, not many people in the community were really impacted by it. Wow, OK. I didn't expect that.
Line 147
Jane Beebe: I don't know if it's because we were so young that they really wouldn't have really qualified to be a part of it, because I was two years younger. But I honestly did not know anybody that was involved with the Vietnam War.
Line 148
Silas Beebe: That's interesting. From my perspective, when I read about the Vietnam War, it feels like everybody got involved.
Line 149
Silas Beebe: Yeah, that's all everyone was talking about, that everyone coming out of high school was getting sent off. That's a really interesting perspective
Line 150
Jane Beebe: Yep. I honestly could not tell you one of my classmates that went into the war. Now we know people who were in the war, but back then I didn't know anybody. Yeah.
Line 151
Silas Beebe: So Pop, of course, you being in the military, you're a little bit more on the pulse of the fact that we're going into the Vietnam War. Did you have any particular feelings about it or any memories of certain feelings?
Line 152
Ron Beebe: I didn't have a whole lot of understanding what the war was about and why we were there. I just knew that some of the guys were wanting to go. That was beyond me, why you would want to go into a hostile area where they're shooting.
Line 153
Ron Beebe: As an Air Force person, you were just where the planes were. You weren't in the jungle or anything. But at the time, there were a lot of a lot of discontent in the general population. Yeah. Because young men were dying in the jungle and being shot in Vietnam and a lot of body bags were coming back. And that was, why are we there? Let them fight their own war.
Line 154
Ron Beebe: was the kind of attitude. And it got to the point where if somebody came home or leave and wore their military uniform, they were criticized and ostracized and very angry and hostile that they were fighting a war in a foreign country. And there was a lot of population who were spending all that money.
Line 155
Ron Beebe: there for nothing. It's not going to help us. So that was kind of the general attitude. And I have to say this is the first war that when men returned, they weren't considered heroes. But after the First World War, Second World War and Korea, the veterans were as heroes, but not Vietnam.
Line 156
Silas Beebe: Wow. That's wild. I never thought about it in that lens. I've heard about that in readings and stuff of soldiers coming back and wearing their uniforms and getting like tomatoes thrown at them and stuff, people screaming at them. Yeah. But I never considered that was the first war where it was, there was a negative take on veterans. That's wild.
Line 157
Jane Beebe: And Jane Fonda was a very loud voice in opposition to it. And a lot of people in Hollywood then joined her and she was very, very, very vocal.
Line 158
Jane Beebe: And I think she kind of like was the spearhead to get people to be so opposed to it.
Line 159
Silas Beebe: So speaking of Hollywood a little bit, what movies and films do you guys remember watching around that time?
Line 160
Ron Beebe: Well, I think the one wasn't the Carlton Heston movie. El Cid.
Line 161
Ron Beebe: with the chariots running around it. I forget what that was called now. I think that was in the 60s, wasn't it?
Line 162
Jane Beebe: John Wayne was, I think, the one that I can remember most being popular in the 60s. There were war movies. A lot of, and even the Western movies. Yeah. Yeah. Westerns were very big in the 60s. Very big in the 60s.
Line 163
Silas Beebe: Yeah, I remember watching some John Wayne films at your guys' house when I was younger. That was like my introduction to Westerns for sure was with you guys, with John Wayne. Do you remember the Green Berets with John Wayne in it?Yes. That was like the, you know, a big Vietnam piece at the time that was sort of pro-war. I remember we were talking about it in class and it was pretty heavily criticized as like, you know, kind of going against all of the counterculture , the people that were against the war. They did not like the film, the Green Berets, because it was so like positive about it.
Line 164
Jane Beebe: So the first date that Uncle Ron and I had was to see McClintock, which was a John Wayne movie. Wow. That we had.
Line 165
Silas Beebe: Oh, that's cool. Very cool. So around this time, of course, JFK is president starting in 1960. What do you remember about his presidency? How did you feel about him in general?
Line 166
Jane Beebe: Well, that was something like you asked about what was happening during that time. And because he was the first Catholic that ever ran for president, that was a major ordeal. And that was something that people were always a little bit of in opposition to, because in the past there had never been a Roman Catholic that had run for president.
Line 167
Silas Beebe: Yeah, no, we talked about that in class. My professor asked why was like JFK such a controversial president. And I don't know where I'd read it, but I remember answering that question in class because he was an Irish Catholic. And we'd never had, you know, like an “ethnic” president for lack of a better term.
Line 168
Ron Beebe: Yeah. Yeah. I was in a friend's house in the neighborhood where I grew up and came into his living room and
Line 169
Ron Beebe: television was on and then they broke into the news and they showed the shooting of Kennedy in the limousine and his Jackie Kennedy trying to climb out of the limousine and they would show it over and over and over again. That was and then of course all the conspiracy theories.
Line 170
Jane Beebe: How many shooters were there? Yeah. Was Oswald the only one? And who put them up to it? And was there a money trail and all kinds of things? Yeah, absolutely. It was the CIA involved and all that. It was in the news not that long ago that they thought they had uncovered some new evidence that supported that there was more than one shooter.
Line 171
Silas Beebe: Yeah, wow. That's crazy. I didn't realize that they played it on TV like that. I don't think they would show it. I mean, it feels like the, you know, like 9-11, the World Trade Center attack.
Line 172
Ron Beebe: They even showed on television when they were taking Oswald from one jail to another place. And there were all these newspaper people and stuff in this room. And Jack Ruby, point blank, shot and killed him.
Line 173
Silas Beebe: Yeah, I've seen both pieces of footage from just being in history class. We've seen them.
Line 174
Silas Beebe: So, Grammy, where were you when you found out that Kennedy was shot?
Line 175
Jane Beebe: I was still in school because it was 1963 and it was a Friday. So I was still in school. So I didn't find out until I got home from my mom's home.
Line 176
Silas Beebe: Alright, wait, can you hear me now? We're good? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Cool. I like bumped my arm on my microphone. And it was my speakers somehow for disconnecting my microphone. So you said you were still in in school when that happened.
Line 177
Jane Beebe: I was still in school. So I didn't find out until I got home. And my mom wasn't a TV watcher. She always had the radio on. So it was when I got home, she had heard on the radio.
Line 178
Jane Beebe: Like, I mean, honestly, everybody went into mourning, everything shut down. I mean, a store shut down, businesses were not operating, movie theaters were not available for shows. I mean, it was just like everybody went into mourning.
Line 179
Silas Beebe: Yeah. Wow. That's that. That's crazy. I can't even imagine in, you know, compared to today, you know.
Line 180
Silas Beebe: So moving on to the civil rights movement a little bit, something we've been talking a lot about in class. What do you guys remember from the civil rights movement of MLK and the March on Washington and all that?
Line 181
Ron Beebe: Well, there was a lot going on and a lot of different things in the news. The, um, there was a, uh, uh, a black woman on a bus that sat in front of the bus when she wasn't supposed to. Yeah. And, um, she was arrested and then there were, uh, some, uh, there was a, um, Oh, I can't think of his name right now. He was governor of, um, Alabama. Alabama. Yeah. I think it was.
Line 182
Ron Beebe: and he was not going to allow black students to go to a white school. And then he was shot and became paralyzed and was in a wheelchair after that. So there was a lot of anger going on. And it was more in the South than in the North because the South still had that segregation mindset. And they grew up that way. And their parents were very hateful toward black people. So.
Line 183
Ron Beebe: Children would just adopt the attitudes that their parents had toward it. So there was a difference between living in the North and living in the South. But when Martin Luther King was doing his marches, and then of course, when he was assassinated, that was all over TD. And it was kind of sad to see he was just a preacher that was trying to do
Line 184
Ron Beebe: what he thought was right and what the Bible was teaching him or what he was reading from the Bible and he gave his life for that.
Line 185
Silas Beebe: So that specifically resonated with you guys being Christians.?
Line 186
Jane Beebe: Very much so and I guess personally because both Uncle Ron, both Pop and myself, we went to schools that were very integrated.So I had a very high population of Black students in the school that I went to. So it really didn't impact us because that was just common everyday life for us to interact with them and to live with them. But there was a distinct line where people...
Line 187
Jane Beebe: Black people lived on the other side of 63rd Street, and the white people lived on this side of the 63rd Street. And one thing that I remember was that a Black family moved into, they crossed the line, and they moved into the white section. And I remember people throwing rocks at their house and windows being broken.
Line 188
Jane Beebe: And it got so bad that they actually had to have police stationed outside of the house because they were the first family to move into the white section and people were not not happy about it at all.
Line 189
Silas Beebe: So ive heard similar things like when I was working for the Idaho Black History Museum in Boise, there was an area that was like across the tracks that was down by the river where was the same exact situation.
Line 190
Silas Beebe: And the guy I was working for, Philip, when his family moved across the street, they had a cross burned on their front yard and they were Baptists.
Line 191
Jane Beebe: Yes, they did the same thing. They had a cross that they burned there too. Yep, they did the same thing.
Line 192
Silas Beebe: Shifting out of the civil rights movement a little bit, something a little more positive, what music did you guys listen to in the 1960s?
Line 193
Jane Beebe: Can you answer that?
Line 194
Ron Beebe: P: I was listening to a lot of country music in those times, but it was more, I guess there was, what was it called, Bandstand in Philadelphia where there was a place where young kids would come after school and they would dance and there were different people.
Line 195
Ron Beebe: They had a DJ that would play the records and then people would dance. Yeah, and they would dance and anytime a new record would come out, it would be debuted, so to speak, from the bandstand location. So there were a lot of kids would go there and it was more of cliquish, the people that went and they were filled with themselves.
Line 196
Ron Beebe: and wanted to be on TV. And that's their main reason for going. But there were a lot of different dances, dance movements that got started and you could see them on bandstand. And Grammy and I used to go to a Catholic church in Upper Darby, right outside of Philadelphia and close to where Grammy lived, to go to the dances. And they had slow dances, fast dances, and...
Line 197
Ron Beebe: They would also, what was the other dance? Cha Cha. Cha Cha dances.
Line 198
Silas Beebe: Pop, you a good dancer?
Line 199
Ron Beebe: We got into a dance contest one time. Yeah, we won the twist contest. Yeah, the twist contest. Chubby Checker.
Line 200
Silas Beebe: Did you win? Did you get close to winning?
Line 201
Jane Beebe: Yeah, we did, we won that one.
Line 202
Silas Beebe: You won? Oh, that's awesome. That's cool.
Line 203
Jane Beebe: That was like when the Beatles were really popular and, Okay. You know, it was a lot of rock and raw. I mean, I honestly listened to more, Johnny Mathis was one of my favorite musicians and he is, I think I just told Poppy's like 89 and he's still gonna be down at Atlantic City singing. Oh my goodness. I know, I was blown away. It's like, this man is still around.
Line 204
Silas Beebe: Johnny Mathis, okay.
Line 205
Ron Beebe: And then they would have, there were a couple of clubs that were not necessarily for people over 21 and they would bring some musicians in and then you could go to those locations and see them live. Bobby Rydell. He was a big one. Yeah. And Chubby Checkers and he used to have his own little dance routine for that.
Line 206
Ron Beebe: P: But there's something you might be interested in now is the same place where Bandstand was. Right next to that was where you would go roller skating. That's where Grammy and I met on the roller skating. Okay. And would also be converted into a wrestling ring.
Line 207
Silas Beebe: Whoa.
Line 208
Ron Beebe: And all the wrestlers that were popular at that time. That's right. Would come there to wrestle.
Line 209
Silas Beebe: Okay, I remember my dad. I think he said that you took him to a few wrestling matches, Pop.
Line 210
Silas Beebe: Yeah, this wouldn't be in the 60s. That would be in, you know, in the 70s and 80s. Did you ever take him to any boxing fights?
Line 211
Ron Beebe: No, no. We would watch boxing on TV with Muhammad Ali or Cassius Clay, as he was called then, and Frazier. And yeah, that was it was usually, I think, on Friday nights, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah. And that was the big thing. Families wanted to get home and watch the fights.
Line 212
Silas Beebe: Oh, that's funny. That's what we do every Saturday now with UFC. I've got a poster of Cassius Clay in my room or Muhammad Ali. That's cool you guys gotta see that live. So how overall did you see the culture of the nation shift throughout the 1960s? What did it shift away from? What did it shift toward?
Line 213
Jane Beebe: Well, I think for me, what I saw was a kind of a movement of people moving from a city to the country, to the suburbs. And that happened a lot during the 60s where, again, because there was that, I'm going to call it infringement of different people, other than the
Line 214
Jane Beebe: Irish or Scottish or English moving into the area. And so consequently it was, they lost their identity because the culture changed and a lot of Italians moved into where I was. And then when that black family moved in, I think people were threatened that this now was going to change their environment.
Line 215
Jane Beebe: So there was a vast exit of people moving to the suburbs from the area that I lived in. Okay, we've read about that exact phenomenon.
Line 216
Silas Beebe: I think they call it urban flight. Yes, yes. We've talked about that pretty extensively.

Eldon Bindley

Line 0
Jacob Bindley: Ok, this is Jacob Bindley, it is September 22nd and I am interviewing Eldon Bindley about his life and experience in the 1960s. So just to start off, where were you born and raised?
Line 1
Eldon Bindley : I was born in Glenwood Springs, Colorado and my race is Native American and White.
Line 2
JB: Where were you raised? Sorry.
Line 3
EB: Oh I'm sorry, my hearing is bad I apologize. I was raised in Eagle, Colorado.
Line 4
JB: Ok, tell me a little bit about Eagle. What was the town like?
Line 5
EB: Eagle was a farming community back when I was a child. My first ten years, well actually, first fifteen years, I lived there it was almost strictly an agricultural community. It was the county seat, Eagle county. We were a small ranching community, on the Western slope of Colorado. Our town population as I was growing up was between four and six hundred people and so it was very small, very small, community with, you know, very close knit community. As I was being raised in 1962, Vail, was established, Vail, Colorado the ski area. And then, so about 1965, late 60s, we started becoming a bedroom community for the ski area, the employees started moving into town as they couldn't afford to live up-valley due to a lack of housing, affordable housing, so we were a bedroom community at that point.
Line 6
JB: Ok.
Line 7
EB: And basically, being raised in a small town is wonderful. I can remember my childhood that we were turned loose during the day because every mother in town was watching us. In fact, in the summers mothers would kick us out of the house about nine o'clock in the morning and tell us not to come back until noon. And we'd go find our friends and play at the park and run around town and play at different places, people's houses. Our town had a fire siren that alerted the volunteer fire department and they had it set to go off at noon everyday. So as a child we were trained that when the fire siren went off, everybody ran for home to have lunch and then we'd go back out in the afternoons to play some more. So it was a very, very unsupervised childhood that we had to make our own games and, very creative, of course there wasn't, there wasn't a lot of other activities other than that. Television in our valley, didn't come into our valley, until the early 60s and it came in, the first TV we had, that I remember as a child was one channel. And eventually we did end up with the three major networks, but it was transmitted from Denver and through a translator and it was snowy and there was times you couldn't hardly see it. And of course it was a big deal for us, but it was something our lives didn't really revolve around at that point. We were more revolved around our social interaction with other children being raised like that.
Line 8
JB: So just to pivot a little bit, talking about TV, what kind of TV shows did you watch at the time?
Line 9
EB: Well, the TV shows that I can remember, TV during the day in my house wasn't allowed to be on. So the only time that the TV, mom would let the TV be on, would be Saturday mornings she'd let it be on for a couple hours, for Saturday morning cartoons. And there were, you know, a variety of different cartoons that, that all of us revolved around. I can't remember exactly which ones they were at this time but Saturday morning cartoons, and then the family at night would watch, after dinner, we'd watch TV and of course we always had our favorites and shows like Bonanza, a lot of sitcoms like I Dream of Jeannie and, off the top of my head, and Leave It to Beaver, and different shows like that, that were typical 60s shows, sitcoms, westerns were big, Gunsmoke was on and Bonanza, and so that was basically the shows. Lawrence Welk on Sunday nights was a must see for the family. Or Saturday night was Lawrence Welk and then Ed Sullivan on Sunday nights was really big. Sunday night, Ed Sullivan baby.
Line 10
JB: Nice
Line 11
EB: We never missed, if we were home we had it on, so there you go.
Line 12
JB: Talking about your family a little bit, what was the structure of your family, how many siblings did you have and yeah?
Line 13
EB: Ok, family was made up of Mom and Dad. At the time I was in grade school, up until I want to say about fourth or fifth grade, Mom was a stay-at-home mom and Dad was the local barber in town, he had his own business. I had an older brother, an older sister, I was the youngest in the family and they were, my sister was six years older and my brother was four years older so there was kind of a gap there where they were closer in age so I was kinda, they spent more time together than I did with them, I was kinda the tag along, and they tried to figure out how to get rid of me. So [laughs] so that was the structure and then, like I say, when I about in fourth or fifth grade my mother then went to work full-time and we became a two-income family.
Line 14
JB: Ok, I guess kind of moving off talking about your mom working and everything, we talk a lot nowadays about the feminist movement, and how it came to be in the 60s. What were your memories of that movement, with your mom taking a job and everything, and how it affected gender roles for instance. Did that change a lot in your town at the time?
Line 15
EB: Well in our household it changed a lot. What happened was when my mom went to work, she was working in the Assessor's office. And one of the problems she ran into a lot was that there was unequal pay. She was getting paid less for doing the same job as the men that she was working with. Which was a frequent complaint, even if she was, had seniority and knew more about the job, they still paid her less and the men more. The assessor at the time was a male and he referred to it as 'well they have families to support and so they deserve more money than women'. I can remember that being a really big deal with Mom because she'd bring that up a lot with Dad and I'd listen to their conversations. And then later my mom actually became Assessor. And at that point her wages went equal, because it was an elected office, went equal to other officials in town. But at that point, in the 60s, there was a lot of women, I can remember, that actually started to work and not be stay-at-home mothers because stay-at-home mothers were very common when I was young, in the first few grades and then later it wasn't so common. And I think a lot of it had to do with second income, you know, also made it easier to get along and it was more of, they can afford a few more luxuries, both of them. So I can remember that transitioning happening and in our household that happened in the mid-60s.
Line 16
JB: Ok, so talking about family and everything, the Vietnam War is happening during the 60s and I'm just curious how did the war affect your community? And how'd your family feel about it?
Line 17
EB: The effect on it, that I remember the most is, that our community was a very conservative community, very patriotic. Most of the men in the community had served during World War Two, my dad was a veteran of World War Two. So the support for the war when it first started was very, I know my dad really supported the war because it was put across that we were stopping communism which was a big, really big deal in his mind because he'd been part of the army that had been drafted to stop the Germans and Nazism. So communism was high, and he interpreted the war as being necessary to keep communism from spreading. Later on in the war, the war in his eyes, and this is looking at it as how its coming across to me, cause I was still fairly young, I remember in his eyes, when they didn't really go all out and fight the war as a war and go in and just invade North Vietnam, his support for the war started to go away because he didn't see it as we were actually fighting a war, we were just sacrificing money and so the support started to decline. And I think that was true throughout our community and I know then, later on, the late 60s, when I was in high school, I had friends that were drafted, served in Vietnam. And I know the support was going down very quickly, a lot of people didn't want to go. And I myself would've went if I'd been drafted but the time I was of draft age, the war had ended which was I think in 72, 73, whatever, but I became eligible and at that time they'd stopped drafting so I was never called.
Line 18
JB: Leading up to when you obviously weren't called, were you scared about the possibility of being drafted and sent over to Vietnam? Or did it not, how did that kind of come into your life, how did you think about it?
Line 19
EB: I never gave it much thought. As I recall now I was never paranoid one way or the other about it. I guess, like I say, I had friends that were drafted and served and a couple of them went to Nam you know but we didn't have any real casualties come back to the community that I can remember. And I guess it never really dawned on me, I never, I don't recall ever worrying about being drafted.
Line 20
JB: Ok, were there any kind of anti-war protests or anything in the surrounding area where you were in Eagle or anything? Any kind of draft card burning, things like that?
Line 21
EB: There wasn't. Our community back then was, on all issues, we were up in the mountains, so to speak, we were years behind the main culture. So even like when the drugs started in the 60s, it didn't get into our valley until, like I wasn't really exposed to drug use in high school, it didn't actually make it into our high schools until I was out in the mid 70s. Even though in the mid 60s and late 60s it was going on across the nation. Same with the war protests, never really hit our area. You'd read about them, see it on TV, but it was nothing that was an occurrence in our community.
Line 22
JB: Ok, so with the 60s we have a lot of Vietnam War protests and different movements going on, how did it feel for example with like the Civil Rights Movement that was going on at the time. How did it feel for you to watch that unfold throughout the 1960s?
Line 23
EB: The Civil Rights Movement was something that I never fully understood. We were a white community, like I say it was small, and when I was growing up there were no Blacks in our community we did have a small amount of Hispanics. But they were, they weren't really, I don't recall a lot of prejudice against them, I remember a couple of my friends were Hispanic and I never gave it much thought about it. So our community was not exposed, I'm sure there was really a lot of racial bias. I do remember throughout that there were, people were commonly using derogatory terms for other races. And we never gave it much thought, we as kids even used them. And so when the whole Civil Rights Movement thing, it was something that we watched and followed closely on TV and stuff because of how it was coming down and of course the Martin Luther King speech was really discussed in school and but it really had no impact on me personally because I was never really exposed to any of the Jim Crow laws or anything like that, because there wasn't anything in our community. Like I say, the prejudice, I don't recall any real prejudice in the community cause there wasn't anyone to be prejudiced against.
Line 24
JB: So kind of going back to the start of the interview, when you were talking about your dad talking about communism and everything, what was your community's reaction to the threat of nuclear warfare during the Cold War. Because I know a lot of schools did hiding under the desk and different drills and things, how did the Cold War affect your community in the 60s?
Line 25
EB: You know, I recall that now, in our community there was actually a person was appointed, kind of the emergency response director I guess, whatever. Buildings had different decals that kind of indicated, the county courthouse had areas that were designated that could be, they considered that maybe was, the basement of the courthouse could be a fallout shelter and they had it stocked with provisions. I remember that. I remember that in school there were drills. Not so much, I don't recall the drills I've heard other people talk about get under your desk type of thing but they were talked more about where to go in the community if there was an emergency. And they had different places that they had. I remember that there were different things like, I can remember Popular Mechanics, my dad always had a subscription to Popular Mechanics for his clientele in the barber shop and he'd bring them home and I'd read them and even in that magazine, there was "how to build a fallout shelter". I still remember that, how you could build your own and what to stock it with in case of nuclear war. So it was something that the community was aware of but was not paranoid about, I think because of where we lived and it wasn't like we lived next to anything major, we thought, the closest thing we had that maybe they'd go after was NORAD. Which was across the mountain range, a hundred-something miles away.
Line 26
JB: Ok, so what do you remember about the Cuban Missile Crisis? About that kind of time back then?
Line 27
EB: I was really young during the Cuban Missile Crisis. I was, what, that happened early 60s so I'd have been eight to ten years old during that time. What I recall mostly about it was, you know, the coverage on TV about it and that kind of thing. I can remember that there was a heightened awareness about what was happening. I can remember a lot of conversations with the adults about the faceoff that was going on in Cuba but it never really, you know I really don't recall a lot about it other than that. It was on the news every night, when we watched the news on TV, you know that was a big thing about the missiles and the spy planes going over and that but I recall that, one of the things I recall is that, the facedown at that point, that when Russia pulled back it seemed to be a big relief for the adults.
Line 28
JB: Ok, so you mentioned you're quite young at this time, and I was just wondering do you remember when JFK was shot in 63?
Line 29
EB: I do, I do. We were in school, and so I'd have been eleven years old so fourth or fifth grade. And I remember that that actually happened, where I heard about it, we were actually at recess. I still recall I was outside when the kids started talking about it and then of course when we went back into our classroom then the teachers made the announcement that that'd happened. And then of course watching everything unfold on the news, because of course every night that was really covered. And of course I can recall everything, I can recall them showing on the news when Jack Ruby assassinated Oswald and all that going on. And LBJ being sworn in, of course that was shown, and that still sticks in my mind. I watched the funeral of JFK on TV, remember very vividly, what stuck in my mind was they had a horse with saddle with the boots and stirrups backwards. And just that whole procession, how it proceeded. So I really recall all that, of course they did show him getting shot on TV so it was quite a deal there. Lot of it stuck in my mind.
Line 30
JB : Yeah wow, I'm sure. So with the 60s we have all these different changes, obviously with JFK getting shot, all these major events. Did the 60s feel Earth-shattering at the time, living through them? Did it feel out of the ordinary?
Line 31
EB: Because it was my childhood it felt normal. I didn't know any different because the 60s, start of the 60s I was eight. In the 70s I was eighteen, so that point in time I had no reference for. The only reference I had was that was the period of time of my life. So looking back after I got older, I can judge it that way. But at the time I was living it, this was just, when you're going through periods of that time its just a normal thing when you're a child because you don't know any different.
Line 32
JB: That makes sense. So pivoting to, we talked a little bit about culture for instance. What kind of music did you listen to at the time, what was kind of popular music for you at the time?
Line 33
EB: Well in our school there was two genres of music. We had country western that was very popular and then of course we had the rock, which was The Beatles and The Who. So I hung out with both cowboys and hippies. So I actually listened to both genres of music, country western and rock, depending on what group I was with. A lot of my friends were ranch kids and were into the country western and then some of them were part of the hippie movement, which they were trying to simulate what they saw on TV and try to catch up with that part of it too.
Line 34
JB: Ok, ok, so kind of going off that culture thread still, what was dating like back then? What were kind of the norms of dating, I know they've changed a lot over the years and decades and everythign. What do you remember about that time and what the norms were around dating and everything?
Line 35
EB: Well I know when I started dating we did have a movie theater in the town so one of the big things was, go to the movies. Or we would go down to the local hangout, kind of like a Dairy Queen, wasn't a Dairy Queen but it was a small cafe type of thing. We had dances and stuff at school that were probably more frequent than a lot of places. They don't do the local community dances like we used to have. We used to have, it seemed like, there was a community dance when I was growing up usually like once a month. That was just one of the forms of entertainment the community had so we did that. Of course it was a lot different back then because there wasn't any cell phones so it was the case of either face to face or on the phone if you were gonna ask for a date. So [laughs] I think it was a lot more, when you got turned down it was a lot harder because of the face to face. Over a text I think it would be a lot easier to accept [laughs], I don't know I don't date, you get to answer that question [laughs].
Line 36
JB: Right haha, exactly.
Line 37
EB: But you know that's the big things we did, dating, if that's what you're trying to get at.
Line 38
...
Line 39
JB: So I guess as we kind of move towards end of this interview, I just want to ask you about a couple different big events of the decade and what you remember. So first do you remember watching the moon landing during the 60s? And how that felt?
Line 40
EB: Yes, yes I do. I remember we did watch the moon landing. And I don't recall us watching it live, I don't think they had, in '69, I don't think they had live TV in school. Because cable hadn't hit our valley so it was over the air. So I don't recall watching it live, I do remember watching it on the news and stuff. To me it was a really big deal that we had put somebody on the moon and of course my expectations from there was that we'd be continuing to go back to the moon and eventually put a base there and all of a sudden we just quit going in the 70s so. But yeah it was a big deal, I recall that, and how I felt was a really, really big deal. And we discussed it in school.
Line 41
JB : Ok, what do you remember about 1968 with RFK getting shot and also MLK getting shot that year too? Do you remember those events pretty well?
Line 42
EB: I do, I remember. Once again I remember both of those events really well. RFK getting shot going through that, as I recall what sticks in my mind is the kitchen area or backroom area of the hotel and of course Martin Luther King being gunned down from a distance. I remember, I did just remember how much that affected the nation, how that was something everybody, the whole thing, and when you had two that close together, the conversations around that, what's going on in our society today, what's wrong with us. Why are we so violent? And those discussions.
Line 43
JB: Ok, did you watch the 1968, the DNC, the protests in Chicago?
Line 44
EB: I did. I watched both conventions but the Chicago one, where they showed, on TV, they actually showed the cops out there with the dogs and the batons. Yeah that was a big deal, and Mayor Daley and you know that whole thing. Once again that all revolved around that conversation I remember having in school, why are we having all this violence, riots, assassinations, Vietnam War, Vietnam War protesters that got shot on that college campus. That was all part of that discussion.
Line 45
JB: Did that impact the way you felt about the time? Were you scared nationally about the way the country was going, or how did you feel about the direction of the country at the time?
Line 46
EB: I think that looking back on it then, I don't think that that was anything that really entered my mind, just due to my age and where I was at. Because I'd have been like sixteen, seventeen years old in '68. And I guess I never, I don't recall being concerned about where the country was going, or the democracy, or anything like that. Just due to, yes I participated and everything, but the big focus in my life was I was a teenager that was, my big focus was sports, playing basketball and football. That was more, the most important thing in my life, and the national political scene was not something that was really.
Line 47
JB: Understandable, one final question, because we haven't talked about, well we talked a lot about your community of course, what kind of role did religion play in your life at that point? Or in your community for instance?
Line 48
EB: Ok, my household, the Protestant religion was very important. My mother was the Secretary Treasurer of the church and she held that from as far back as I can rememeber until well after she retired in the, well I think she held it clear into the 90s. So the local church was very prominent, that was big focus of where we spent time, as a family, with the community. The churches in the community, there were two major churches, which was ours, the Methodist Church, and the Catholics. And probably the majority of the community went to one or the other, so our community was very faith-based and there was not competition between the two, in fact, there was a lot of events that the churches held together, so it wasn't a conflict. Our religion wasn't a real strict religion it was just, kind of a, I guess back then more of a moderate-type religion. But it did play a big part in my life growing up and our family participated in the church and supported the church and like I said, my mom was a real big part of it.
Line 49
JB: Ok, well with that, that comes to the end of our interview so thank you for your time today and I appreciate you sitting down with me.
Line 50
EB: You're welcome.
Line 51
Summary: Eldon Bindley is my father and I interviewed him on September 22nd. He was raised in a small ranching community in Colorado and was born in 1952. His formative school years occured during the 1960s. Major themes of the interview include politics, the Vietnam War, the Civil Rights Movement, religion, culture, and media.

Rita Birge

Line 0
Ben DeWitt* : So in the 1960s How old were you? What age group were you in?
Line 1
Rita Birge* : I was born in 54 so by 1960 I was six years old. So for the whole 60s, I would have been from six to 16.
Line 2
Ben DeWitt* : Do you remember a lot of what was happening around the world?
Line 3
Rita Birge* : What I remember the most was the Vietnam War. From being a small girl, I lived with my folks in Spokane Valley. And by the time I was 12, that was 67, we were already involved in Vietnam, and it was on the Nightly News. And the Nightly News was something that my mother and father watched every night, and so it was always on the TV during dinner time or shortly after. We watched the news, and every night, the top of the news was Vietnam. What battles have been fought, how many lives had been lost, and how many people were missing. It doesn't really touch you as closely until something happens to you. I grew up in that first house I was raised in, and there was a whole neighborhood of kids, just huge amount of kids, and we all knew each other. We all knew each other's brothers and sisters. We played at each other's houses. It was just this huge array of kids. And one of the kids families across the street from us. Their last name was Moss, M-o-s-s and they had like, six kids, and their eldest son, Larry, was in Vietnam at that time, and he was boots on the ground. In those early years, he was shot and killed. It became a whole neighborhood of closeness to Vietnam, and brought it to life for all of us, that someone in our little neck of the woods, our little neighborhood, would actually have someone who was there and died, and he received all kinds of awards posthumously, or, however you say that, and his parents went to, you know, to meet the mayor and all that kind of stuff, and got his medals and whatnot. But it was, it was a big deal in our neighborhoods. So the Vietnam War was a big deal when I was growing up.
Line 4
Ben DeWitt* : Other than just the impact in your community, were there any other instances like that where you remember a large impact made by the Vietnam War in that time period?
Line 5
Rita Birge* : Not necessarily about The Vietnam War, other than it was just a nightly news thing, it was just something you got accustomed to watching, as far as battles and numbers of people dead and that kind of thing. The other big event that happened when I was 10 was when John F Kennedy was shot, and I was in the fourth grade. My teacher's name was Mrs. Parrott. I remember very clearly that morning, the loudspeaker went on, and everyone was told to go home. And as kids, we didn't know what was happening. The busses came and those that walked home walked home, and we all went home, and I remember arriving home and my mom was in the middle of the living room crying, and our big old black and white TV set was in the middle of the living room, and they were doing all this business about John F Kennedy being shot and killed, so that was a big event in my life as a child,
Line 6
Ben DeWitt* : You mentioned that you watched the nightly news a lot. Do you remember anything specifically about the Civil Rights Movement and all of that stuff happening?
Line 7
Rita Birge* : I remember little bits and pieces, and that it was on the news. There wasn't a lot of conversation around the kitchen table. I knew that there were black people that lived somewhere, but there were none where I lived. There were none in Spokane Valley. There were none in my schools. There were none anywhere around me, or any place that I went. The first time I even saw a black man was with my mom. I was young, and my mom had her dad with us, and we drove to downtown Spokane early in the morning for him to see somebody. And there was a black man standing on the side of the street, and I remember my sister and I staring at him wildly because we'd never seen anybody like that before, and my mom and dad never talked about it. And I know my dad didn't work with any black people. There weren't any black people around us anywhere. So what we saw in the news was something that was happening someplace else. You know, all those other places, all those other states, were so far away.
Line 8
Ben DeWitt* : Did you see like an uptick in the increase of the black population, kind of around Spokane after the 1960s?
Line 9
Rita Birge* : Yeah, After the 1960s after grandpa and I were married in 73, there was an influx of African Americans. There was more of an influx of Asians and at that time, there was also women that had been married to Vietnam vets, and they were coming over and they had children. Your mom: Amy, and Kenny, they had some half white, half Asian kids in their school. I don't remember if they had any black kids. But even those kids were treated poorly because they weren't white. And Kenny had a friend that lived near us when your mom and Kenny were growing up, and they weren't treated right. And so the influx happened, you know, later in our lives, as far as becoming more mixed in our area. But up until that point, up until the 70s, we were a pretty white white area for sure.
Line 10
Ben DeWitt* : Help me paint a picture of what life was like. Did you ever go to the movies or watch anything other than the news on TV? Tell me about that.
Line 11
Rita Birge* : Okay, so as a kid, growing up with my little sister, we had lots of kids in the neighborhood. We walked to school. We walked a mile to school. We were outside playing all the time. We didn't watch we didn't watch cartoons or watch TV after school. We didn't have computers, we didn't have phones, we didn't have all that other stuff. So unless you had chores to do. You were outside playing. So we biked all over the place. We went over to other kids' houses. Some kids had above ground pools that we'd swim in in the summertime, or we'd play baseball out in the field. We always had something to do, and we had free rein in the neighborhood. There weren't any bad guys out there. There wasn't anybody that was going to bother the kids. All the kids had free rein in the neighborhood, and they were all over. And all you knew was, when it started to get dark, you better get home, or you're going to miss dinner. And on Saturdays, you woke up as early as you can, and you ate your cold cereal, and you hit the door, and you were outside again, and you played all day outside. When we trick or treated. When I was a little kid, my sister and I would be gone for hours. Our moms never took us trick or treating. We just took off and had to come back. Nobody was ever going to hurt you. Nobody was afraid for their kids.It was a safe environment that somebody hurting you or abducting you or anything was not even on people's minds. It just didn't happen, not in the neighborhood I grew up in. We did go to the movies. Mom had let us go to the movies., Not very often, because we didn't have a lot of money. But we did get to go to the movies. Sharon (Rita's Sister) and I belonged to a church that had a big youth group, and once a month we'd get to go roller skating clear out on the north side of Spokane. We got to go roller skating once a month. So we used to roller skate quite a bit. We had a sledding hill. We had a sledding hill not too far from where we lived. And so all the kids in the wintertime walked to sledding hill, and we'd sled all day. We just had runner sleds. Some kids had tubes, but I just had a runner sled. And we had about mile and a half, close to two miles away from our house, was a little store, and I mean a little store, but it had penny candy. Underneath the window were bins and bins and bins of penny candy. And you could go buy penny candy, and mom would give us a little bit of money. Every once while, we could all ride our bikes down to buy penny candy, and we had lemonade stands and the ice cream truck came by in the summertime, and mom would buy us ice cream from the ice cream truck. We had a good life as kids. We played a lot. We had lots of friends.
Line 12
Ben DeWitt* : Do you remember what the first movie you ever went to the theater to see was?
Line 13
Rita Birge* : The one that stands out in my mind is Gone With The Wind. We didn't go to a lot of movies. We did go to some, but that one stands out in my mind.
Line 14
Ben DeWitt* : Was it a drive-in theater?
Line 15
Rita Birge* : It was the old Dishman theater in the valley. It was an inside theater. I have an older sister, Judy, and Judy's 11 or 12 years older than I am, and when she was dating, if my mom and dad didn't like who she was dating or was concerned about her for any reason. She could go to the movies with her boyfriend if they took Sharon and I. So Sharon and I would we were just little girls. We'd be dressed in our jammies, and we'd sit in the backseat of whoever's car when she got to go to the drive in movies. I remember doing that
Line 16
Ben DeWitt* : Do you remember listening to any music?
Line 17
Rita Birge* : When I was turned 12 years old, I loved Herman's Hermits. Ever heard of Herman's Hermits? I think they came out just before the Beatles. You'd have to research that. If they came out at the same time, or just a little bit before the Beatles. They were also from England, and that was one of the first albums I ever bought.
Line 18
Ben DeWitt* : And was that like a vinyl record?
Line 19
Rita Birge* : Yes. It was vinyl record. I had a phonograph, and my mom and dad had a phonograph, and they had lots of old records.That was one of the first records I ever bought. And I also loved The Monkeys, and I listened to the monkeys and I watched their TV show. I was madly in love with Davy Jones, of course.
Line 20
Ben DeWitt* : What did your parents do for a living?
Line 21
Rita Birge* : Okay, so my dad worked for Consolidated Freightways. It was a trucking firm in Spokane, and in his early years working for them, he drove trucks from here to Cle Elum. Cle Elum is on the way to Seattle. So he drove back and forth to Cle Elum, and then as he got older, he stopped driving, and he worked on the docks. To work on the docks meant you loaded and unloaded all the trucks. So my dad worked for them for over 30 years. I think it was 33 years i. And he worked the docks mostly, and he went to work at a very early time. He left the house somewhere between one and two o'clock in the morning. And my mom was a stay at home mom, as were all the moms I ever knew. All my friend's moms that I knew were stay at home moms. We had a couple moms in our neighborhood when I was growing up that were nurses and they worked in doctor's offices, but everybody else was a stay at home mom. So my mom had a big garden out in the back yard. My mom sewed a lot of our clothes, and she canned fruit and vegetables and all that kind of stuff in the fall. My dad hunted with his brothers. He had two brothers. So we always had deer meat. We always had birds. He hunted a lot of birds. My mom and dad fished a lot, so we had a lot of fish to eat. They were farmers. My dad grew up on a farm.
Line 22
Ben DeWitt* : Do you remember where you went to Highschool
Line 23
Rita Birge* : University Highschool in Spokane.My brother and sister went to Central Valley High School. But as the valley grew and more people came, they had to build University High School. I graduated in 72.
Line 24
Ben DeWitt* : How would you sum up life in kind of the Spokane area in the 1960s?
Line 25
Rita Birge* : I look back on it as a kid, you just take it for granted. But to look back on it. I realized how safe we all were. We all came from families, moms and dads and families. We were all cared for, all the neighbor moms and dads knew who we were. It was friendly. If somebody was sick, everybody, you know, everybody bring over a pot of soup or a cake. I mean, everybody took care of one another. It was fun. I didn't worry. I wasn't scared. It was a good time. It was a good time to be a kid.
Line 26
Ben DeWitt* : Is there anything from the 1960s that you remember that seems oddly familiar, or you see happening again in America today?
Line 27
Rita Birge* : I think political unrest was always there, and the ebbs and flows as far as as what's happening in the world. Of course, we were in Vietnam, and so that was a war, and the political unrest because of the assassination of a president, and here we are now today, with the political unrest that we have heating up in the Middle East, with war. I suppose that that could be, you know, as close as I could come to that there. There seemed to be a calming after all of Vietnam and everybody getting back on their feet and readjusting to life as it was then and now. It seems to be bubbling up again in other ways, not only unrest here, but politically with the violence and whatnot that's going on here in our own country. It's heating up.
Line 28
Ben DeWitt* : Do you remember kind of what the general consensus about the the Vietnam War was? How did the people around you feel about the Vietnam War?
Line 29
Rita Birge* : My father was a World War Two vet, and most of the people that he knew were World War Two vets, I think they probably felt whether it was necessary or not. I think the consensus was, "let's just get the job done." And I think for the most part, people felt that we weren't being aggressive enough to get the job done, that it went on for much too long, that it we just didn't go in and get the job done quick enough that we needed to be more forceful or do whatever we had to do to get the job done. And the fact that we just walked away after all that time and all those people that died, we walked away, and I think that left, that left a scar on a lot of people at that time. Going to war was one thing, but to let it go on for as long as it did, and then walk away was something else. Where they came from a generation that you just went in and you got it done, and it was your duty, and that's what you did as Americans. You went in and you got it done and you came home. And that's not exactly what happened. So I think there was some frustration with that
Line 30
Ben DeWitt* : The Vietnam War is heavily characterized with the amount of war journalists that got sent over there, and people were seeing the war themselves on television. Do you personally remember seeing anything on TV or on the news about the Vietnam War that stuck with you?
Line 31
Rita Birge* : They didn't show a lot of, you know, fields full of dead bodies or or things like that. What I do remember seeing toward the end, where they would show the screaming and crying of the women and the children and that kind of stuff, and that was always hard to see, but they didn't do that till toward the end. So no, nothing, no picture rings out in my head about it just, it was just a generalized, yeah, they were pretty they were very cautious on TV back then, black and white TV and all back then of showing anything bloody or too graphic. So it was generalized pictures. But toward the end, they showed more. They were a little bit more graphic, and that was hard to take.
Line 32
Ben DeWitt* : And you were also alive at the height of the Cold War. Does anything stick out? Or do you remember what life was like? Like living under potential nuclear threat from the east.
Line 33
Rita Birge* : In the 50s and early 60s, we were kids. People make fun of it now because they show them on TV and it's more of a joke where we had to hide under our desks. So we had bomb drills in school. It was just like you had fire drills, and we had bomb drills. And so when the drill alarm would go off, kids were told to crawl under their desks, or crawl under the teacher's desks, or some could get into the closet if there wasn't enough room. But that was the kind of cover we took for a nuclear war. It was to crawl under our desk. It seemed like the right thing to do, you know, now it's hilarious to think that crawling under a desk is going to do anything for you.
Line 34
Ben DeWitt* : And do you ever remember anyone around you, perhaps your parents or a teacher or some other adult in your life talk about the communists, or share any kind of concern over the Cold War?
Line 35
Rita Birge* : Not at my house, not at my house. I don't remember any like that. The only other thing I remember, as far as bomb threats was that most most people had basements. We had a basement, and the basement was stocked with canned goods, food, blankets, and shelter. So if anything was to happen, we were to run to the basement. But I don't ever remember my parents talking about it.
Line 36
Ben DeWitt* : Did you ever feel any kind of anxiety from the Cold War, or was it just not on your radar
Line 37
Rita Birge* : Yeah, as a child, it just wasn't on my radar. But as a kid, I didn't think anything else about it. The rest of my life was great. We had air raid siren right at right across the street from my house, went off every Wednesday at noon. Wow. That was justt commonplace. It's what we grew up with. I suppose maybe if my parents had talked about it more, or talked anxiously about it, or anything like that at the kitchen table, maybe Sharon and I would have been more afraid or or thought more about it, but my parents never talked about it in front of us. I'm sure it was something that they talked about or, that they thought about, but nothing that they ever shared with us showed that they were afraid.
Line 38
Ben DeWitt* : Do you have any memories of the feminist movement or it affecting gender roles at all?
Line 39
Rita Birge* : I was probably too young for that. But the only thing I do remember, as far as feminism or anything like that was Roe v. Wade My mother, for whatever reason, was a proponent of Roe v. Wade, and went to Ladies groups and had meetings and all that kind of stuff. I don't know where she took it from there, other than if there was a vote of some sort. But anyway, she was a proponent of that, and I just remember her voicing her opinion to us.
Line 40
Ben DeWitt* : You've been extremely helpful to me. I think this interview has gone very well. You've given me a lot to work with. Thank you so much for your time!

Tony Cole

Line 0
Matteo Milani : This is Matteo Milani interviewing my grandpa, Tony Cole from Santa Rosa, California. How would you describe daily life in the 60's? How do you think it is different from today? How is it the same?
Line 1
Tony Cole: Well, I was a teenager in the early 60's. I didn't care about politics. Vietnam was going on, I lost a lot of friends. I've alwasy been behind the government, even today, but over the years i've come to the conclusion that we lost a lot of boys for nothing. So, I was wrong back then, but you know, what i'm gonna call the "hippies," I was not one of them. I hold them to it for being against the government.
Line 2
MM*: Would you say the politics were similar to how the left and right are today?
Line 3
TC*: Yeah, uh, they're lazy (chuckle) the Hate Ashbury scene, I was not into. They marched against the governement, and they had that free-spirit attitude with no rules. So I hold that to the young people of today. They're not working, they're against the government for no reason. Well, not searching out their reasoning, they're just going with the party atmosphere like in the 60's. Vietnam was a very big mistake. We have that going on now, but like I said, I'm pro government, I'm pro laws, and the hippies were on the other side of that fence.
Line 4
MM*: Yeah, their movement wasn't too happy with the government (chuckle)
Line 5
TC*: We all did the partying, drugs, the 50's started the 60's.
Line 6
MM*: How so?
Line 7
TC*: Meaning the music, the attitude, the freedom, the cars going up and down the streets touring. And then my generation, about 5-6 years younger, we went into the 60's and continued that. The drugs were free, the partying was free. A big mistake (chuckle) A lot of years wasted.
Line 8
MM*: Would you look back on it as a good time, or would you have liked to have done things differently?
Line 9
TC*: A good time in the partying, but not a good time in wasting years. You know, i'm a firm believer that drugs stop your growth. So it took me a lot of years to figure that out. So, again, I lost a lot of years that I could have been productive, and be in better shape than i'm in now, meaning financially, matterial things.
Line 10
MM*: So what was your favorite kind of music to listen to back then? And did you feel like it had an influence on you?
Line 11
TC*: Well I met your grandmother at the Doors dance, or concert. The music carried over from the 50's and got more radical in the 60's. The 50's with Elvis, and Big Bopper, and Fats Domino. That kinda rubbed the adults wrong, and the 60's got to the Doors, the words, the lyrics, the music tempo, concerts. That didn't happen back in the 50's and 40's. We ran with that, The Philmore, in San Franscisco, there was no rules (chuckle) You just partied your heart out, and hoped you got home (chuckle)
Line 12
MM*: Seems like it all worked out (chuckle)
Line 13
TC*: Well, yes and no. Like I said, at this phase of my life, I do not believe in the freedom of drugs. I watched my friends, and I watched my life, i've come to that conclusion
Line 14
MM*: Ok, so it sounds like the music did have a pretty big impact.
Line 15
TC*: Yes, yes it was the music and the drugs and everybody was on the same page with the lyrics. It was not Frank Sinatra (chuckle) it was loud and about freedom. Woodstock, I never made it to Woodstock, but Woodstock tells the whole picture of the 60's and early 70's.
Line 16
MM*: Was that something you would have liked to have gone to?
Line 17
TC*: Yes (chuckle) but I did not have a vehicle that would have made it
Line 18
MM*: Oh dang (chuckle)
Line 19
TC*: But we did Altamont, and the Philmore, and others like those concerts that were local. I don't know if you know anything about the Philmore, but they had, you know, Janis Joplin, Big Brother and the Holding Company, Jimi Hendrix, those musicians.
Line 20
MM*: Oh that's awesome.
Line 21
TC*: Yes, yes, I don't regret being young in the 60's, but I did waste a lot of time. People tell me all the time, you're lucky you were a teenager, and early twenties, in the 60's. Yes, but I think things could have been different. The drugs made a big difference. You know, my folks and the adults at that time, you take a puff of marijuana and you're hooked for life. Well that proved to be wrong, so the next step, and the next step, and the next, and that led to partying.
Line 22
MM*: Ok, so similar to music, how do you remember televison? Has it changed a lot?
Line 23
TC*: In the 60's I was never around the home much, I remember Leave It to Beaver (chuckle), the American all around family programming. And then Saturday Night Live started, and that broke the all American home life. So Saturday Night Live was in sync with the times. They broke the barriers of talking about different subjects, and putting the government down, and the humor all went with the times.
Line 24
MM*: Was it cool to watch that unfold?
Line 25
TC*: Well, I don't remember it as unfolding. At my age now, I can remember it unfolding, but at the time that was just life. You didn't have to worry about tomorrow and consequences. It was just a good time everyday.
Line 26
MM*: Yeah that's kind of the interesting part about looking back, you don't really realize the effect while it's happening.
Line 27
TC*: Yeah, I lost a lot of friends, not overdose, but medical. The drugs, like liver diseases, car wrecks, and motorcycle wrecks. So it was a good time, and a bad time, if that makes sense.
Line 28
MM*: Yeah, yeah, I get you. Well, i'm sorry to hear that.
Line 29
TC*: Then the Vietnam War was going on all this time. So I guess it holds true today. You have two sides to a coin. You have the hippies with their peace sign marching against the government, I was on the other side. The government was right, the government was your shepard, and so we clashed with the hippies. But then there were the concerts, you know, we were all together, but seperate.
Line 30
MM*: So you liked the same music, but not the same politics.
Line 31
TC*: Yup, exactly, and it showed. Like I said, I met your grandmother at the Doors dance, and that's pretty radical music. But yeah, that was the 60's and early 70's. You listen to the words of the doors and its pretty radical. But at that time it was good music. Big Brother and the Holding Company, Janis Joplin, and I pretty much did not listen to the music, as much as I did the tempo, and the atmosphere around it. Now I look back onto the words and (chuckle) i'm at awe with the lyrics.
Line 32
MM*: Ok, so let's move on the Civil Rights Movement. Do you remember it happening? Like did it have a big impact on your daily life? Or did you not really notice it as much?
Line 33
TC*: No, no that was never... I watched the news, and we talked about it, you know, Martin Luther King, but no. I had very good friends that were black, but uh no, I mean my door was never closed.
Line 34
MM*: Ok then we can move on to my last question. You already kinda answered this, but concerning the Vietnam War, how did you feel that it affected your community?
Line 35
TC*: It was divided. They came home... well I had a lot of friends and we used to go the Italian deli and buy a care package of meats and cheeses and breads and ship it over to my friends. I wrote letters to them, and I was backing what they were there for. Well when they got home, I was kind of laughed at. I was way off base from what they were feeling. They were there, and I was here, driving up and down the streets and partying. They were being shot at away from home and away from friends, and I didn't understand that at the time. Like I said, I wrote letters to them, and I was backing them. And when they came home they laid into me. You know, "what are you writing," and "it was bad over there." It wasn't a good war. Should've never been started in the first place. And then when they came home, they were spit on, and they were called baby-killers, and that's not true.
Line 36
MM*: Yeah that's tough.
Line 37
TC*: Colateral damage, naturally the civilians and children and so forth in the way. But you know eighteen years old, nineteen years old, I was still in Santa Rosa partying, going to the Philmore, dating and all that kinda stuff, and they were there. Seeing the ugly part of war, and when they came home, they were not treated like war veterans today. And I think that people learned off of that. You know, service members come home from Iraq and Afghanistan and they're treated really well. But the hippies and the far left liberals, boy they hammered them. And that was confusing, mental issues, I have a couple of friends who never came home mentally. And they should've been greeted with open arms. It was not a war that should have been fought. Then it was a political war, my father, lifer in the marine core, served three duties over there as a gunny. And it was a politcal war, meaning politicians who are ran by the mothers of the soldiers, ran that war.
Line 38
TC*: My dad would take a position, and then the next day give it up. And then a week later take that position back. The military did not run the war. The politics did. And the politics are ran by mothers, and families. So that's my take of why we lost so many young people. Your grandmother lost her childhood friend, I lost three or four friends, and a couple of them mentaly never came home. Your great grandpa, my dad, fought World War 2, Korea, and three duties in Vietnam. When he was home he used to stay with me and your grandma, and he used to say that it was goofy. It was not fought like World War 2 or Korea, it was civillians fighting the military, and military killing civillians, and poisoning their crops, and so forth. Your great grandpa was down on the military part of it. He was proud of World War 2 and Korea, because those were issues that needed to be resolved. Vietnam was not an issue to be solved. It was political. And today we didn't accomplish anything. Vietnam is still communist. Forty or I guess fifty thousand young men died for no reason. Not counting the people who came home mental, and without limbs. For no reason.
Line 39
MM*: Yeah it's a real rough point in American history.
Line 40
TC*: But back in the 60's I was all for it. The government was gonna kill all the comunists and gonna save America. It wasn't until years later that I realized, and did a little reading, and realized it was not a war that had an end.
Line 41
MM*: Yeah, yeah that's really tough.
Line 42
TC*: Yeah, like I said , I got hell from my friends that came home. I was promoting the war (chuckle) you know go get em guys, and they were going "oh boy, you are off base."
Line 43
MM*: Well thank you so much for sharing that information with me. I know it can be tough to talk about.
Line 44
TC*: I hope I didn't confuse you to my thoughts (chuckle)
Line 45
MM*: Oh no, no.
Line 46
TC*: You had brought up the memories, and it's been a long time since I thought of the friends that I had lost. War is no good, But it has to be fought for a reason.
Line 47
MM*: Yeah at the very least.
Line 48
TC*: Yeah, my dad, your great-grandpa hated politicians. As a gunny, lost a lot of men for the politicians. Politicians need to stay out of the military. The military is trained to know whats best, but the politicians get involved. And they make rank that they never should have made. My dad hated what he called the "Minutemen" coming out of college and fighting the battle while turning the page. "Oh, chapter one, how do we fight this?" No experience in the field, and got a lot of people killed. Anyway...
Line 49
MM*: Well, I really appreciate you taking the time to answer some questions for me.
Line 50
TC*: Like I said, I hope I answered your questions, and not strung you out wondering what I was saying (chuckle)
Line 51
MM*: No, no I thought you did a great job. I like hearing old stories.
Line 52
TC*: Yeah, the 60's were crazy times.
Line 53
MM*: That's what I hear.
Line 54
TC*: It was the start of everything. Before the 50's people did not speak out, kind of like sheep. The 50's broke it and the 60's ran with it. People nowadays speak out on everything. (chuckle)

Louise Davison

Line 0
Lucinda Meshberg: This is Lucinda Meshberg and I'm here with Louise Davison doing an oral history recording for the long 1960s class. Just to start, for some background information, how old were you in the 1960s? How old were you in 1960?
Line 1
Louise Davison: 1960. I would have been 17.
Line 2
LM: Okay. So, where did you grow up?
Line 3
LD: Outside of Philadelphia in a small town called Paoli, Pennsylvania. Population, probably 2000. But we were about 20 miles from Philadelphia. So It was a small town, but it was close by city sophistication.
Line 4
LM: What do you remember about getting your education there and growing up?
Line 5
LD: Public education, good. The high school I went to was Conestoga High School in Berwin, Pennsylvania, still considered to be a very good school. We competed in that area with a lot of private schools, but our production, the school's production, was very high level. I was an academic track, because they used to track back then, and intended to go to college and did.
Line 6
LM: Where did you go to college?
Line 7
LD: That's a long one. I started off at a small girls' school, called Cedarcrest College in Allentown. Pennsylvania and went there for two years. Then I transferred to the Pennsylvania Academy of the Fine Arts in Philadelphia and went there for two years, and then I got married, and then I moved to North Carolina, and my husband was working on his PhD, and I finished my degree, my undergraduate degree in art history, at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill.
Line 8
LM: Was music and television and important part of your life during the 60s?
Line 9
LD: Not really. No.
Line 10
LM: Okay. My next question. What kind of effect did the Vietnam War have on your community?
Line 11
LD: And this is another very interesting thing. I can't speak for my community. We were in Graduate school, Pete was in graduate school starting in 1966.
Line 12
LM: And Pete is your husband?
Line 13
LD: He was my husband. Right. And I say that I don't know how it affected my community because I was in a student community. We were aware of the students who did not get deferments. We were aware of one who died in Vietnam. My husband happened to have been 4F, and actually, in 1968, in the heat of everything, he had open heart surgery, and so it did not affect us the same way it affected everybody else. I remember enormous conflict about it, but because we were both in school and because he was not involved, it didn't have the same impact.
Line 14
LM: How did it feel to watch the Civil Rights Movement unfold throughout the 60s? Or what memories do you have about it as a movement?
Line 15
LD: One probably would be later, which was a friend of my parents was involved in Fair Housing, and so I was aware of that. I don't know and I'm not sure whether that would be in the 60s or not. I was in North Carolina when Martin Luther King was killed. I remember participating in some, I don't know that they were rallies so much as commemorations. This was a southern school, but in a very, you know, a very black and white State. And the thing is, there was definitely an outpouring. I've always watched the news, I have not been impacted terribly by, you know, commercial television so much and I remember being aware, but I was not active.
Line 16
LM: Okay, so when do you remember starting to watch the news?
Line 17
LD: Well, I watched the news you know, the early news when there were only three stations. And I watched, I'm pretty sure it was NBC. I remember vividly Walter Cronkite. I remember the beginning of McNeil Lehrer on PBS and I to this day watch that on a daily basis. It is my only source of news with the exception of the newspapers online, the Washington Post, and the New York Times. And I don't listen to radio. And I never did listen to radio which makes me an outlier in my own generation.
Line 18
LM: So did your family own a television when we were young?
Line 19
LD: After I was 12
Line 20
LM: After you were 12. Okay.
Line 21
LD: We used to go up the street on Thursday nights and watch The Lone Ranger at a neighbor's. They had one earlier.
Line 22
LM: What do you remember about dating and when did you start dating?
Line 23
LD: I don't - I was five feet eight when I was 12 years old, and I was, I have been cross-eyed my whole life. And my dating situation was different from the popular girls. I'll put it that way. I think I had a boyfriend, sort of in like the 10th or 11th grade, nothing very serious. I started to date, actually, a man who had graduated from college at the end of my senior year. And then I met my future husband in the very beginning of my freshman year and we dated off and on for four years before we were married.
Line 24
LM: What are your memories of the feminist movement and how it affected gender roles throughout the 60s?
Line 25
LD: That's really a hard one because I was aware of and sort of didn't like Betty Friedan. I have a different attitude I think than a lot of women. I had three brothers and I grew up in an all-male neighborhood. Literally didn't have- I had girlfriends at school, but there was nobody who lived around me. Which meant that I assumed that I needed to take care of myself. So it didn't occur to me that I couldn't do anything that a man could do. And I was not particularly persuaded by the fact that I needed to somehow be different or feel differently than I did just sort of natively. I then, when I got into, much later, I am extremely aware of this disparity in earning power for women. And I know that in my early marriage, I would, I was divorced in 1978, and at that time in the state of California, I was warned to get a credit card before I divorced because I would not have one If I didn't already have it. I had - my father could sign on my bank account when I was a teenager, I could not do that by myself. So I was aware of all these things, but they were not enormous obstacles. It became, I think feminism became Pretty serious after my divorce and trying to get jobs and even an educated woman and being paid less. It was, you know, that matters. But I was never an active feminist, and I still feel I feel the way I have always felt which is I think I was one of the boys in a good way.
Line 26
LM: So tell me about your siblings and growing up with you said, three brothers, yes?
Line 27
LD: It was in the days when we were very free. We played, I mean, aside from school, we played in the summertime from breakfast until we were called at dinner, and our parents had no idea where we were. The thing is we lived in a small town, everybody knew everybody. My father was a small-town physician, so we definitely were, you know, known, and it was a lot of imagination. Tree houses, playing in the woods, and riding bikes, and it was quite wonderful. And actually I moved to Moscow Idaho after my divorce, with two children, a two-year-old and a six-year-old so that I could try and achieve in Moscow, Idaho, the freedom that I had had as a child and I think my kids, my brothers would say this, that we had the last, you know, fabulous childhood and I think my children feel that way about their childhood in Moscow.
Line 28
LM: When did you move to Moscow?
Line 29
LD: 78'
Line 30
LM: 78'? Okay.
Line 31
LD: Thought I'd be here for a year. Can I go back to the dating question?
Line 32
LM: Oh yeah. Absolutely.
Line 33
LD: Because the one thing that I wanted to tell you is one of the things that is very much in the news right now. Abortion was not legal, and it had a huge impact at least on me regarding my sex life. I was terrified of getting pregnant before I was married. And the thing is, it didn't cause me to change anything, but it was very definitely a deterrent at least in my community and I think I was not probably alone. Did sex occur? Of course, but not like it certainly has been able to be since the birth control pill.
Line 34
LM: So you did not have access to birth control?
Line 35
LD: No, no, not until I was married. And it was very, very early. I mean, as a matter of fact, the pill that I, you know, the pill in the early days was 10 times maybe a hundred times more powerful than it is and it ultimately was so powerful that it altered my reproductive system, to the point where I couldn't have children for almost eight years.
Line 36
LM: Oh wow.
Line 37
LD: Until my hormones, you know, got under control. So now it's a fraction of what it used to be. The chemicals are a fraction of what they used to be.
Line 38
LM: Growing up, what sort of games that your brothers and you play?
Line 39
LD: A lot of sports. Baseball, some football. My problem was that I have no depth perception because I only have the side of the one eye, so I was always lousy at it and the last one called. We did a lot of running. Had there been track for women back then, I probably would have done track. The only sports that were acceptable for women in those days was tennis, field hockey, and if you could stand it, half-court basketball. No women ever ran track back then, and the idea of what's happening now with women's basketball was absolutely unimaginable.
Line 40
LM: Speaking of school, what subjects did you do in elementary school and high school, and what was your favorite?
Line 41
LD: Always art. We were taught to read in reading circles out loud, and I was very embarrassed to make mistakes, so I did not like that. I did read a lot when I was a kid. You know, privately. My fifth-grade teacher, I don't remember subjects, and in elementary, my fifth-grade teacher was a returned Korean War veteran who had lost an arm. A man. And he was an outstanding teacher, and I remember that year being really exciting. He just was a great guy. Junior High. I loved again, art. I always veered toward English and the social sciences before the hard Sciences. High school, I took German and four years of Latin, loved that, took Latin again in college, and the very best course I had in high school was what we called Civics at that point. And it was taught by a man who was way ahead of the game. I graduated in 1961 from high school, and this man was already putting the Vietnam situation on the radar which was way early, and also making the importance of Civic involvement and voting important to us as high school students, and it was it was a great course.
Line 42
LM: What kind of books did you read? You said you enjoyed reading.
Line 43
LD: Nancy Drew. Oh dear, I don't even remember. The classics. You know, children's literature, young adult literature was not yet the big deal that it is now, so mostly the classics. Heidi, but I don't know.
Line 44
LM: The Classics? What genre did you find yourself drawn to more?
Line 45
LD: In books?
Line 46
LM: Yes.
Line 47
LD: Well, it was all fiction. I mean, I don't remember getting, you know, non-fiction serious until I was an adult. I will tell you that I did take saxophone in elementary school, and I was in saxophone in the band for two years, but by the time I got to the junior high school, and it was junior high school, not middle school. So seventh through eighth, seven, eight, nine, it was not seemly for a girl to play saxophone so that was the end of that music career. And when I did listen to music my father had loved classical and also jazz. And so those those were the things that I would I was sort of raised in the sound around.
Line 48
LM: Was being seen as- because you said you quit saxophone because you wanted - it wasn't... What was the word you used? Seemly?
Line 49
LD: It was definitely a man's instrument.
Line 50
LM: Was that important to you, being seen being seen as feminine?
Line 51
LD: No, I don't think that I saw it that way. I think I just accepted the fact that it is what it is and there may have been other interests at that point I don't remember.
Line 52
LM: You mentioned you learned German and Latin in school. Did you ever travel to Germany or meet any German-speaking people to practice your language?
Line 53
LD: No, I wanted to be an AFS student and go abroad, but - and I don't know what the situation is now - but it was at that time, very expensive and my family could not afford it. So I was not able to do that. I did make up for it however, because I have lived for a year in Norway, I have lived for a year in Spain, and I lived for two years, in Ukraine in the Peace Corps about 15 years ago and traveled a lot.
Line 54
LM: Were you always interested in Going to other countries and learning about other countries?
Line 55
LD: Oh, yeah. I mean, yeah absolutely. You know, when you grow up in a really small place, but the influence of the city was close enough. My family were Presbyterians, and we had wonderful programs in that church, in the little local church, with Lincoln University, which was an all-black University in Chester County. And so, we had these wonderful exchanges with people. We did have exchange students at that time who came to Paoli so I had Connections, but I think if you grow up in one place, you want to get out. And indeed, I wanted to get out at 18 and never went back.
Line 56
LM: Was religion an important part of your life growing up?
Line 57
LD: It was when I was young. It was very important to me which may have also been one of the reasons that I was kind of not one of the typical teenagers at that time during junior high and high school. I actually was, at one point in my senior year of high school, preached at the Riverside Presbyterian Church in New York City, and then in the summer of my senior year and between senior year and freshman year of college, two close people died. The father of a friend, and an uncle of mine, and sitting in the services, I came to the conclusion that death was final and that was the end of it and I've never looked back.
Line 58
LM: You mentioned it wasn't common for people your age to be very involved in the church or religious.
Line 59
LD: I think it was a super involvement. I would have to say. It just was a big part of my life. It was a big part of my identity I would say from 12 to 18. I always sang in the choir, I participated in various youth events. Anyway, but as I say, then all of a sudden one day, it was over and I don't know what my teenage years might have been like if I had not had that.
Line 60
LM: Music seems like it was an important part of your life because you play saxophone and you mentioned singing in the choir.
Line 61
LD: Well singing was belonging. And the thing is, so I sang all the way through high school. I sang in college at the first school I went to. When I moved to Moscow, I've been in a couple of musicals which was sort of fun. I was not the lead, but I was in choruses and so forth. And that's a big, that's a huge kick. When I came to Moscow, Idaho, I joined the university corral. Not the big fancy one, but the amateur one if you will, and sang for several years with that. And I don't know whether this matters to you, but I have five children and three of them are artists. Two of them are major musicians. One of them is a professional. So I got to listen to music being practiced every day, all day. Not all day. And, as a matter of fact, one of my kids is playing in Carnegie Hall on the 1st of November with the 30th Anniversary of the band Pink Martini, so it's a big part of my life.
Line 62
LM: This may not be definitively within the 60s, but when did you have your children?
Line 63
LD: My first child was adopted from when we were living in Norway. We adopted my daughter from Korea in 1971. And as I say, I could not get pregnant for a while, so I did not get pregnant until four years later and ended up having my first son, who will be 50 in December. And then after my divorce, I remarried when I came to Moscow and I acquired a stepson, and then, a year later produced a set of twins.
Line 64
LM: So you raised them to be very artistic.
Line 65
LD: Yeah. Yeah, it was pretty important for us. I mean, as I say, trying to kind of recover that really free childhood that I'd had. And they could do that here. And the benefit, of course, being that there are two universities here and they could take advantage of things like the, Lionel, Hampton Jazz Festival. When the twins were toddlers, they could stand as far away from Ray Brown as you and I are. And the thing is, uh, this was a wonderful area creatively, artistically, and musically. They are exceptional.
Line 66
LM: You mentioned in school, your favorite subject was always art. What medium was your favorite?
Line 67
LD: Well, when I studied at the Academy of Fine Arts, it was painting, although I would have if I had stayed there, I would have gone into printmaking. And after the kids were out of high school, I began to do art again and I have been pushing the medium of fabric behind glass paintings. I can show you some of those if you like, but at any rate, I I love, I love working with fabric. I thought I was going to be a quilter, and I made one quilt, and that was the end of that. But I got into fabric as a medium and I'm still doing that.
Line 68
LM: Do you think it was in school that this creativity was sparked?
Line 69
LD: I think I inherited it. My father should have, rather than being a doctor, should have been a medical illustrator because he was a very, very fine drawer. My mother was also quite artistic, so I think I came by one or two genes, but I was always good at it, and I loved it, and so it was easy for me. I also am a real fan of serious, I mean, the arts are serious stuff. Children who are educated with the arts are, usually have a leg up both from the standpoint of what it does for their brains and their openness to things and how they see and interpret, but also just pure pleasure.
Line 70
LM: Before we're done, is there anything that you wanted to bring up that's really important that you say about your life? I've gotten through all my questions.
Line 71
LD: I just feel like a very lucky woman.
Line 72
LM: Is that because of the time that you grew up in?
Line 73
LD: It's a combination of things. I have the feeling that I would have lived through some of the best years on the planet. I mean, I've gone from, I was born in the middle of World War II And went through, all those 50s that we've been talking about as a child, but as a young, you know, teenager, older teenager, I've been very fortunate with wonderful family and friends, and I feel as if, the medical advances have been an advantage to me. I think that I'm worried about where technology is taking us in terms of the distraction for children. I'm glad I'm not raising my kids right now. They all work in the industries and of course use technology all the time. But I feel I can't say that certain things that have happened to me have not had, you know, purpose, but I feel, I just feel lucky.
Line 74
LM: Thank you.

Ty DeVault

Line 0
James DeVault: This is James DeVault. I'm here with Ty DeVault, who grew up in the 60s. Do you want to tell me a little bit about where you're from?
Line 1
Ty DeVault: I was born in Casper, Wyoming. My parents, my dad was born there. My mother moved there when she was in junior high. So my grandfather homesteaded outside of Casper, Wyoming in the 1920s. 1920s when he moved there. I grew up in town a little bit on a ranch in the summer times, up in Northwest Wyoming. I went to school there, all 12 years and kindergarten, too. Went to the community college there in Casper and then went to the University of Wyoming.
Line 2
JD: Okay, and you were born in 1962
Line 3
TD: Today? 6 years ago. Today's my birthday.
Line 4
JD: All right. We'll start off with what kind of shows or movies did you watch?
Line 5
TD: Anything we could get on the TV. We watched Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom, Wonderful World of Disney. We had to watch the news with Dad. Let's see. Some of those sitcoms back then. Dick Van Dyke and Bewitched. We didn't watch much because, well, one, we couldn't. And two, we had too many other things to do. We did used to go to the movies. Me and my friends, we'd go, it was 25 or 50 cents. We'd scrape together and go down to the theater and watch the popular kid shows of the day. I can't remember what they were. Cartoons mostly.
Line 6
JD: You mentioned the news. Do you remember anything specific about the news when you were a kid?
Line 7
TD: The Vietnam War, of course, was on the news every night. There was footage from that. That was pretty publicized war. Then there was about the same as today. A lot of people blaming somebody else for whatever their problem was. I think it must sell the news and the doom and gloom. You didn't see too much positive news. I think you saw a little bit more than you do today, positive news, where somebody did something good. Then we'd watch the national news and then we'd watch the local news. You got some more variety there. They would have the news for 15 minutes. Then they would have the weather for 10, and then they would have sports for five. Pretty much the same as it is today, I would guess.
Line 8
JD: Okay, with Vietnam, how did you or your parents or your community see it? What was their perspectives?
Line 9
TD: Vietnam, the war? My family, my dad and my grandpa, they missed out on the wars. They were either too old or too young to this war or that war. I did have some uncles. I had one that was in World War II and in Korea. Then I had an uncle that was in Vietnam. Of course, you know, we were a conservative town. We supported our troops. I had a neighbor across the street who was in Vietnam for three tours. He got captured and escaped from the Vietnamese. His dad was in World War II. He captured and escaped twice from the Germans. So, you can imagine when you hear stories, you grow up hearing stories like that. I get to talk to these fellas, you know, on the front porch. You begin to empathize with them and their plight and the sacrifice that they did make. Even as a young boy, I could understand that. They were over there fighting for somebody else, and I'm one of them.
Line 10
JD: Okay, interesting. We're gonna go sort of back to family. Were any of you religious or did you attend church?
Line 11
TD: Yes, my dad wasn't, my mom was. We went to the Lutheran church there. We didn't attend all that regularly. Then we moved out of town, you know, a couple miles. Dad bought two acres. We built a house out there, he was a contractor. We built a house outside of town, and we were like a mile and a half from a church, and my mom started going there. It was a less liturgical church. It wasn't a charismatic church, but there were some really honest people there that took their faith to the next level. You might say they loved on their neighbor, like "I love your neighbor as yourself" kind of thing. My mom took a shine to that. So we started going every Sunday to the chagrin of my dad. I think he felt kind of left out. We went every Sunday, Wednesday night, Sunday night, Sunday morning, and potlucks and all that, you know. Out to the lake, up on the mountain. We were involved into that church. Dad wasn't. He fought it for 20 years, and then he finally gave in and accepted the faith.
Line 12
JD: You mentioned your dad was a contractor. Can you go into a little more about what your parents did for a living?
Line 13
TD: Well, he was a plumber, and he worked back then. You had to work as an apprentice, and then you became a journeyman. After 10 years of, I think it was four years apprentice, six years journeyman, you could apply for your master's license, where you could own your own business. And he did that, and he started his own business. Mom was a stay at home mom. She raised us until we were out and all the kids were in high school. Then she worked in the school system as an aide. But dad provided most of the money. Mom provided the insurance through that job. Of course, he hired me, I learned how to be a plumber. My older brother, he still owns the business, and he's retiring out of it. But that was the family business. Everybody just kind of flocked around that. You know, answering phones, and going on calls, and stuff like that. That's how we made our living, that's how we ate. He started the business in Casper I think in 1973. And at that time, there were a bunch of oil companies that were drilling wells. I mean, there was over a thousand wells going at any one time in Wyoming for about, I would say, six to seven years. So the housing market just exploded. Casper doubled in that six and seven years. And that's what he did. We plumbed a lot of houses, and made a lot of money doing that. I didn't say he didn't get rich, but he fed his family in about a house, that kind of thing.
Line 14
JD: So how did town change over that time?
Line 15
TD: Well, it expanded, I hunted a lot, and where I would go hunting, they would throw up a housing development. So then I would have to go further out of town, you know, and find more deer and animals, rabbits, or whatever it was, that changed, that impacted me. Going out to the fishing holes, we grew up on the North Platte River, and there was some reservoirs and fishing holes got more crowded, we just had to get more creative on where we went and stuff like that. That's how it affected me. And of course, you know, you had that food on the table because of it, but that was always a drawback.
Line 16
JD: What was watching the civil rights movement unfold like? Did that affect you at all?
Line 17
TD: In Casper, Wyoming, there wasn't much of a civil rights movement. They're just, and I'm not saying that because it wasn't, you know, there was people of color there and other races and that wasn't it. It was everybody was just too busy working. So nobody had time to play the victim or to play the victor or whatever it was. I just remember the grown-ups shaking their heads and saying, "What are they doing out there? You know, what are they doing in the cities? What are they doing wherever it was?" And it was hard to get accurate, what was true and what was accurate. You know, they're not necessarily the same thing, true and accurate. So we were kind of shielded from it because it didn't happen in our own front yard or on our streets. We'd see it in the news and people would shake their heads and couldn't understand much of it. And or make heads or tails of who's telling the truth. There were several views out there. Now, the civil rights movement, everybody said it was about time that, you know, stop the segregation and that. I remember everybody talking about that and they were glad to see that coming. But then the movement, the policies that changed or the laws that changed were good, but the movement itself was destructive. People were hurting themselves by doing those things. I lived in South Africa in the late 80s and early 90s at the same time that they went through their democracy change. And so I got to draw the parallels and, of course, there were older folks there that I worked for that would, that from America, that would say, "Yeah, this is the same thing that's going on, you know, here and going on there back in the 60s and 70s." And it was the same problem. There were people there, you know, that were fighting for true democracy, but then there were some there just fighting to cause problems and they were power hungry and they wanted fame and they wanted something when it was over. They weren't in it for the, not all of them were in it for the democracy. They were in it for own personal gain. And I think that's true in our world and just about everywhere.
Line 18
JD: Do you remember anything about, you're a little young for Kennedy, but you remember anything about Martin Luther King, Jr.'s or Robert Kennedy's assassinations?
Line 19
TD: No, I remember when it, you know, I remember people talking. Yeah, Kennedy, I was a year old when he was assassinated. I know people talked about him, even, you know, years old, too bad, Kennedy got assassinated, you know, because he would have made a good, and that would, he would have made a good president or he did make a good president. That was even in the conservative field. If Kennedy was alive today, I think he would be a Republican because his views, you know, he would tell people to hold themselves up and get themselves going. But he was a champion for the civil rights. And I remember people who were staunch conservatives singing his praises because he was, he was one president that was, as I understand it, and as history pointed out, he was fighting for those rights and trying to get all men created equal, but he was also telling people to help themselves and stop hurting themselves. I don't remember Bobby getting shot. I do remember people talking about it, and you know, what a tragedy. They had empathy for the Kennedys. They, the poor parents lost two kids. I mean, that was terrible.
Line 20
JD: What was the Cold War like in Casper?
Line 21
TD: It was, I think the same as everywhere because it was cold and there wasn't any flare-ups. So I think everybody had the same experience with that. You know, Russians this and Russians that. And I remember going over the hydrogen bomb in science class and how many people was going to kill. One teacher told us that if they nuked Denver that it would wipe out Casper, which wasn't true. I mean, a thermonuclear bomb is pretty big, but it's not that big. And of course, everybody's town was a target. Ours was a target because we had three refineries. It was a crossroads, blah, blah, blah. Well, you lived in fear the entire time. Running fear is popular with teachers. I know I was a teacher too, but it creates discussion in the class and you like to get that going. And there was a lot of that that was passed on, but some of it was true. I mean, all it took was somebody to do something stupid and we'd be at war. Of course, nobody wants that because once that button is pushed, everybody's dead. So what's the point? I don't know. The Cold War. And people were dying. I remember that. There would be these little flare-ups like in Panama or in, well, in Yuba. I don't remember that battle, but it was one of them. And little ones in Africa that you would hear about. And it was a result of the Cold War. So people were dying, but there was no battle to fight. And then, of course, who knows where everybody was dying at. You didn't hear about them because it was all covert.
Line 22
JD: Did you have to do duck and cover drills in school?
Line 23
TD: Yes, we did. In grade school, we did.
Line 24
JD: What was watching the space race like?
Line 25
TD: Oh, that was cool. That was fun. We got to watch TV in our classroom, I think, twice or three times if a launch or a landing took place during school hours. Plus, there was only one TV in the whole school. So your teacher had to be the one to go down and request it and make sure she reserved it for that. But I remember watching Apollo 13 come. You know, that was the one that almost died. They had some problems, but they made it back to Earth. We got to watch them enter the atmosphere and the parachutes open. We did watch, we watched most of them at home because it happened at that time. And I don't think the school had a TV, so during Apollo 11 or anything, there just wasn't a TV available. But we were always cheering them on. I remember we'd play in the playground pretending we were Buzz Aldrin or Neil Armstrong or whatever.
Line 26
JD: Did you get to watch Apollo 11 live?
Line 27
TD: I don't remember. I think so. I remember watching them on TV. I can't tell you if it was 11 or 12 or 13 or whatever. I think so. And of course, I had to go to bed at a certain time.
Line 28
JD: Sid you go to a lot of rodeos as a kid? And what were those like?
Line 29
TD: Yeah, well there was the Central Wyoming Ferron Rodeo which was in Casper, and it always took place a week before Cheyenne Frontier Days. And Cheyenne Frontier Days was in the top three rodeos in the world. So the Central Wyoming to Casper Rodeo has always played a week before Cheyenne. That way we could attract all the big cowboys. And the Chamber of Commerce or somebody came up with money for big rodeo purses to attract the big rodeo stars. And of course, it's Wyoming, and rodeo was a big thing there. So we would get the big old stars and we would get big headliners, you know, like Tonya Tucker. I remember seeing Doug Kershaw. He was a fiddle player, but I didn't watch those. But the rodeo was there and a big deal. And we got to see some of those famous ones. I can't remember their names, but you cheered them when they pulled out their cow or their horse. And then it influenced me enough. I did rodeo when I was in high school. I did it for the girls. Didn't pan out very well, but I wanted to be a cowboy. Went to them and in high school you could do high school rodeo. And the national finals high school rodeo was in Douglas, which was 50 miles away. And the college national finals was in Casper too. I mean, so yeah, we got to go see a lot of rodeo and those people are very patriotic. And talking about people who love their neighbor, it's those country folk, those rodeo hand, I mean, I saw him literally give the shirt off their back to somebody. So that was my heroes
Line 30
JD: How did technology change? Like did TV get a lot better? Household appliances, stuff like that?
Line 31
TD: I remember buying a 19, I was in seventh grade. I mean, 74, 75, my dad going down buying a microwave for mom for Christmas. I remember getting a color TV about that same time. In high school, I remember going and looking at the first computer I ever saw. It was in the office. They did attendance on it. I remember, early technology is one of those things that goes on an exponential curve. You know, it's not linear, it doesn't have a slope. It, the faster it goes, the faster it gets. So it's logarithmic. And I remember that growing up. Our first phone line was a party line, which means you pick the phone up and listen to other people talking. But then, you know, that went away. So, oh, hey, we get, you know, we can dial our own number. And cable TV came sometime in the early seventies to, we couldn't afford it, but some friends who had it. And then, of course, here we are now talking over a computer. And some little things waving at me. I don't even know what's going on. So, you know, artificial intelligence is now on the news. I mean, where's it going to stop? I have no idea. I don't, I got to say something about it. I'm not a fan of it. I liked it back in the 60s and 70s when your car ran on a carburetor and when it broke down, you knew why. You might have had to walk someplace to get somebody to give you a ride home. So you could go get your dad to tow you home, but it was much simpler. And it wouldn't sit on their butt as much staring at a screen. Well, we didn't, we didn't do that at all. We were outside.
Line 32
JD: Do you remember any sort of fashion trends at the time that were kind of just like weird or different now? Anything influential to you?
Line 33
TD: Oh yeah. Bell bottoms. I remember my mom would go repair my jeans, you know, that tore on the legs and just sewed them up with American flag, kind of red, white and blue patches. And then she flared the bottom with the same red, white and blue. And I was in tall cotton then with that pair of jeans. Yes sir. Ah, yeah, it's cool. And then of course the stupid look, you look at it back at them and I'm looking at a picture right now of me and those, some bell bottoms. I'm about 12. I'm holding a string or a fish and I got bell bottoms on and it looks just terrible. Long hair. Now most of the people where I grew up had short hair. If we saw a long haired person, we were like, hey, look. So that's where we lived. I think I'll wrap it up with this one.
Line 34
JD: Do you remember any particular like toys or gadgets that you played with that were popular for kids at the time?
Line 35
TD: Well, I remember some. We played with the football most of the time in the park, but I remember Kenny. Kenny was, they were a little richer than the rest of us. He got the evil Knievel and you could crank it up and jump. It was a little evil Knievel that you'd put on a little motorcycle and then you'd put it in this gizmo and crank it up and then release the brake and he goes zooming off. I remember that one. That was about 1969. GI Joe is what we played with a lot. We'd take them down the creek and throw them in, you know, hit them with a bat. We didn't have a lot of toys. Kenny did, but most of my friends didn't because we just didn't have the money for it. There's more money here now than there used to be. People are overall wealthier. They can afford more luxuries. So, you know, we got to eat and we had a football. I think all three of us had a football, the same one and that's what we did.

Donna Ellis

Line 1
Donna Ellis: Well, I guess it is.That would just put me down in posterity. Right?
Line 2
BK: Exactly. We had to, like, read this whole thing about making sure we get accurate consent.
Line 3
DE: Right. Right.
Line 4
BK: And so I have a list of questions. So the first one I'm going to start with is during you and when I say the 19 sixties, it's like at any point during it, however you feel. So what kind of television shows did you or music would you say you listen to a lot during the time?
Line 5
DE: Well, television shows, that's really hard for me to remember right now. Maybe I better come help you. Yeah. Papa better come and help me. I we've probably watched, Disney. I I don't know if that was on in the seventies. I mean, the sixties. Sorry. I don't know. I didn't really watch very much television in that first part of the of the sixties. I was in college, and there were no TVs around to watch TV. Yeah. We watched there was a cowboy or something like that movie on Sunday night. Bonanza. Western Bonanza or something was on. We watched Bonanza, I guess.
Line 6
BK: Oh, very nice. If that one would, we could also, like, have a change, like a pivot. Did you listen to a lot of music? Would you-
Line 7
DE: No
Line 8
BK: No?
Line 9
DE: No. I didn't.
Line 10
BK: Okay. That was, like, our first little one. Did religion play a large role in your life, and did you attend church pretty frequently during this time?
Line 11
DE: Yes. It played a large role in my life. I went to a Christian college, and I attended church regularly during the whole decade.
Line 12
BK: Very nice. Do you think that played a factor in kinda shaping your world views and society at the time at all?
Line 13
DE: Yes. I think it did. I know that during that time, the, the hippie, quote, movement started in San Francisco, and that was very far removed from anything that I was doing at the time. I was busy working, trying to get through school. And, was not interested in, being a flower child or protesting anything.
Line 14
BK: Yeah. Which that kind of can dive us into our next question of, the sixties was a pretty big, decade for, like, civil rights movements. We saw, like, MLK, Civil Rights Act, and different organizations like that. How did it feel to watch the civil rights movement unfold throughout the 1960s?
Line 15
DE: Well, I think that the things that we saw were very sad. You know, that what we would see in the, on TV, about the marches and the fire hoses, used on the people. And, it affected us a little bit on that when, Martin Luther King was shot. We were living in Leavenworth, Kansas then. Dad was in the, the army, and we had planned a weekend trip. But because of that, we he had to stay right on base, because of, you know, the unrest, I guess. So it did affect us in that way.
Line 16
BK: Yeah. I know. Especially, like, everything going on right now politically, you know, assassinations. Do you think because was it no. Yeah. Sorry. When it was, like, Martin Luther King's assassination, do you remember kinda, like, the reaction to it? Like, what was your reaction or, like, society at the time? Like, how do you think they took it?
Line 17
DE: Well, I think it was terrible. And, of course, we'd already lived through the assassination of, president Kennedy. Yeah. Which was the worst thing that we could think of. And, I think it just brought the whole country, you know, to a standstill. And I think that most people were very sad about the, fascination of Martin Luther King because he was proclaiming peaceful, methods and so on.
Line 18
BK: Yeah. And then kind of to build off, like, the idea of the civil rights movement, be 1960s was big for a plethora of different groups, not just people of color. But do you have any memories of, like, the feminist movement and how it affected, like, gender roles throughout that time? Do you remember any of that?
Line 19
DE: Well, I remember they were burning their bras. And it really didn't affect me because I like I said, I was in college. I got married during the sixties, and I worked all of those years. Those, up until 1970. And that movement did not affect me in my job. Mhmm. I didn't feel like, you know, men got a better, spot or anything like that. Mhmm. So I was probably removed from the feminist movement. I didn't see any need to, protest.
Line 20
BK: Yeah. Yeah. I just wanted to ask that one. And then, I guess I forget what year exactly it was. I think it was 1963 we saw the assassination, kinda just to circle back to that, of president, Kennedy. And what do you remember the, like I guess we can start with, like, the political atmosphere after that happened, like, or just kind of like the overall, like, as a country, like, feeling?
Line 21
DE: Well, I think it it reminded me of the country after 9/11. The it, you know, it was very serious, and the whole it didn't matter which political party you were in. It was a terrible, terrible thing to happen, and, you know, things just kind of closed down. And as far as the politics then, I know that Lyndon Johnson was probably escalating the war in Vietnam when he came in, and that was still the time of the of the draft. So every young man knew that they were gonna go, and most likely, they were gonna go to Vietnam.
Line 22
BK: Yeah. Which I think that brings up a great point that I was gonna ask next, but how did the how did the war affect you and, like, the community that you were living in at the time? I know that, papa had to go. How did it affect you, though?
Line 23
DE: Well, it was, it was very scary. You know, we would see these things on the news, and the only way we had to communicate was with letters and they were not very steady. Like if you wrote one every day, you wouldn't get one every day. They might build up and it might take a while. I remember sending a package that didn't get there because it was right after we were married in 1965 in December January, that Papa got his orders that he was going to Vietnam and, you're always worried that if you saw a military car or a military person coming to your work or something that they were gonna come and tell you some very bad news. Mhmm. That was for a year that we lived that way. And it was now my friends that we were close to, they had boyfriends and husbands also in the war so that we were, people weren't protesting like us around us closely. But I know those protests were going on in other places against the war and that, it made it hard for the the men coming home.
Line 24
BK: Mhmm. Yeah. And I think that brings up, like, a great next kind of question to ask is how did he, like, how did you feel about the war at the time?
Line 25
DE: Well, I think I was I was just afraid. I really didn't have the political you know, you would see on TV that so many died each day. They would put this news up, and they would show shots of different things happening. And I wasn't studying politics at the time and knowing that maybe we were fighting a war that we shouldn't have been fighting. But we were citizens and you do what you're supposed to do. And if you're drafted and they send you, you go. But the politics of it, I probably learned a lot more later than I was dealing with at that time that during the time that papa was in Vietnam.
Line 26
BK: Yeah. I know. I've it's been really interesting during this class, like, kinda learning more about, like, Vietnam and the draft and things. So Yeah. But I guess we can kinda pivot from there and kinda talk about another kinda like issue that was going on at the time. But, what would you say your reaction or kinda like the general consensus of like the community you lived in pertaining to nuclear warfare, due to the cold war? And, like, what was your thoughts?
Line 27
DE: I you know, I don't remember much of that cold war during the sixties. I I remember it before that being in school, and we'd have the bomb drills, you know, under the desk. And I really don't think I have a lot of thoughts or remembering anything on the on the new on nuclear things going on during that time. I know that we were kind of always afraid of Russia, taking over.
Line 28
BK: Yeah. Like the red scare and everything..
Line 29
DE: Mhm..
Line 30
BK: And so you what year did you graduate from college?
Line 31
DE: 1965
Line 32
BK: 1965, so the same year you and papa got married, right?
Line 33
DE: Right
Line 34
BK: So did you, did you start teaching in the sixties then?
Line 35
DE: I started in the fall of 65. That was my first teaching job.
Line 36
BK: Very nice. And how would you say, like, I guess even stemming from, like, the first couple years of you teaching in that early years, compared to, like, when you retired later on, did you ever see, like, a shift in, like, schooling or how things are kinda looked at?
Line 37
DE: Right. In fact, when I first was teaching, there was not a teacher's union that everyone belonged to. And there were not so many the parents weren't telling the teachers how to teach or, there probably weren't so many special services as they have, you know, at the end of, you know, whenever it can be identified with an IEP and so on like that. At the beginning, it was the teachers were, thought highly of where I was teaching. And I'm not sure that that's always today still happening.
Line 38
BK: Mhmm. Yeah. I know. I think it's really interesting to see, like, the shift from that and kind of different things. But I kinda have a fun question to ask you next because I know you got married in 1965. So leading up to that, what was dating like back then?
Line 39
DE: What was dating like? Well, you would usually go to dinner. We went to sporting events. We didn't really date for very long. We dated for about a month before he went in the army. He was then home after 8 weeks. He was home for 2 weeks, I guess, from basic training before he went to his tech school. And so we dated during that time, go to dinner, a lot of sporting events, movies. And then the next time I saw him, we were planning a wedding and getting married.
Line 40
BK: Very nice. So maybe a little different than nowadays with social media and dating apps and everything.
Line 41
DE: Probably very different. Right?
Line 42
BK: Yeah. What would you what do you say I know we talked a little bit about religion and how it played a factor in your life, but do you think back then religion had a bigger impact on society as a whole and people took it more seriously in comparison today?
Line 43
DE: I think that more people did attend church and probably did take it more seriously. Before the sixties, you really wouldn't hear of too many, people rebelling over different things, like, started happening in the in the sixties. So I think it probably had a bigger influence then than now.
Line 44
BK: I know. I think that's interesting to think about because when you see, like, those or even, like, when you read historical texts, it's a lot of, like, religious oriented even, like, when you look at Martin Luther King Junior and stuff. What I'm trying to find how I can word this. I guess after JFK was assassinated because that was, I think, in 63. Right. And he was going into an election. Do you think that played a factor in I don't even maybe voter turnout or, like, kind of do you think it boosted, LBJ's chances at winning?
Line 45
DE: It's hard it's hard to say on that. You know, I know that I voted. And but before that, you know, the election when JFK was elected, I was still in high school. Mhmm. Or at least the preliminaries to that election and, you know, and then my classes, we were studying the different candidates and things like that. So I was knowing more, learning more about the elections then like in, you know, 60 I graduated in 61 from high school. So I don't know whether more people turned out because the news is not wasn't telling us things like that Yeah. Event. Do you know, whether there is a big turnout or not? I mean, I know that we always watch the elections and the returns, but you didn't get all of the information from all the different sources that you would today on those kinds of things.
Line 46
BK: Yeah. And I think that brings me to, like, kinda my next question is what I mean, in comparison today, politics is such a polarizing topic. Would you how would you say compared, from back then to today, like, what was different about politics? Like, what people's interactions,
Line 47
DE: Well, I think if there was a debate and wasn't wasn't Nixon and Kenned- JFK had the first debates, I think that was what it was. They were not up there bad mouthing each other.. They were debating the issues, and there was not nobody until this last couple of elections have been so bad about all they can do is just say bad things about the other person. Which is really off off topic because half the time, it's not true.
Line 48
BK: Yeah. I know. I think it's super
Line 49
DE: I just think it was elections just seem to be more of a democracy.
Line 50
BK: Yeah. I know. I think that was something super interesting we were looking at, in one of my courses, debates from, like, back then to, like, now when it's just, like, so dramatically different. It's like, oh, they get out there and, like, even I think we looked at one from, like, maybe 2,008 or 2012. I think it was one of Obama's. And during their downtime, the candidates are talking, asking each other, oh, like, how's the family? Blah blah blah. And, like, compared to now, it's like, ugh. Just Yeah.
Line 51
DE: Polarizing. Oh, right. That was, you know, you would ask about church and and so on. And a lot of a lot of church people, protestants, didn't wanna vote for Kennedy because he was Catholic and they thought the pope was going to be running America if he won. But, you know, that did not turn out to be true. Yeah. But that was that was one of the polarizing thing there in that election, I remember.
Line 52
BK: Yeah. What I mean, like, even, like, in comparison today, like, what would you say, like, your day to day, how does it, like how is it different, like, today than it was way back then other than it's been a while, if that makes sense.
Line 53
DE: You mean just well, right now, we're in such an everything is so inflated to prices that for people that are on a limited income, it would be really really hard to go and pay triple price for, bread or a fruit bowl or whatever you're going to to do. You know, the gas and the our utilities and the fact that, nowadays, insurance, like car insurance and especially homeowners in California are canceling people all the time, because they don't wanna ride insurance in California because of the wildfires. And now our house, of course, is not in a wild wild fire area, but our company quit riding. And so we'd had them for, what, 22 years or something, and, goodbye. Yeah. Well, I know. So I don't remember those. I don't remember, you know, it was in the seventies when we had the gas shortages. Mhmm. That was not in the sixties. I mean, we in the sixties, we could pay 19¢ a gallon for gas. And so you and our utilities were not very much. And, you know, the everything kinda was more stable price wise. And now we've just seen it go up and up and up.That's been crazy.
Line 54
BK: That's been crazy. Trying to think of any other ones that I need to make sure to ask you. Was there anything that went on during the 19 sixties that felt like earth shattering at the time to you? Like, oh, this is so different. Like, setting a new precedent that occurred throughout that decade, it could pertain to truly anything.
Line 55
DE: Well, the things that I remember from the sixties that were so different were the protests, the hippie movement, you know, the flower children and, that kind of rebelled there. Most of them were wealthy, and they were rebelling against the status quo, I guess, that their parents, you know, had worked for, and the assassination of our president. Those were the the big things, you know, in the world that that I remember. Yeah.
Line 56
BK: Yeah. I think it's always interesting when people talk about JFK and just just how big that moment was. And then the protest about the flower child, what was what was it about?
Line 57
DE: Well, it was the status quo. They, you know, they decided they didn't want to have a job and work 9 to 5 or whatever their job was. They wanted they would rather do their own thing, live in communes Try to say tune in to an awful lot of this. What was it? Try to think. Tune in. Turn on your And the they would take up different causes, and so they would of course, one of them being the war in Vietnam Mhmm. That they would, protest against. And there were, oh, I don't know if this was in the sixties. The I was thinking of that Patty Hirsch. It might have been in the sixties. It was sixties. It might have been in the seventies. And there were, a group a group that kind of brainwashed her or something. She was very rich and then she was kidnapped and became part of this militant group. SLA or something? Something like SLA or something. It was it was very weird. I don't know if that was the 6 late sixties or or early seventies even. But I think the protest was against the war. That's mainly what I remember. But they would protest businesses too. That they didn't think were They're supporting the war war effort. The businesses that would support the war effort. And, it wasn't so much the environment at that time. Yeah. But I just say the status quo. They didn't they didn't care for that. Yeah.
Line 58
BK: I think as we wrap up, is there any other thing that really stuck out to you in the 19 sixties that you really just think
Line 59
DE: We got married. Oh my goodness. Those were the those were really the big things. You know? I graduated from high school in the sixties. I graduated from college in the sixties. I met papa in the sixties. Mhmm. And we did we, we were still yeah. We didn't even buy a house until after in the seventies. So we were still renting there, and he was getting through school. He finished his degree in 1970, and I've had Suzy in 1970. So he started teaching that September, and I stayed home that September of 1970. So we had, you know, we had a great church there at at First Church in Pasadena, and we had many, many, many friends. And we would get together with our friends, and they were having babies. And, you know, we'd all of those kinds of things. It was a great family time in the late sixties seventies for us. But as far as the politics and things like that, I think we've already covered all those main things that that we remember, the assassinations and Yeah.

Kaye Felt

Line 0
Cooper Simmonsen : Hello, my name is Cooper Simmonsen and I am here today to interview Kaye Felt, and she is my grandma, so that is our relation to eachother. The date is currently September 24th, 2024. The purpose of this interview is to explore Kaye's experiences in the long 1960's. Kaye do I have your oral consent to the recording of our conversation today?
Line 1
Kaye Felt : Yes ma'am.
Line 2
CS: Okay, Kaye we will begin. Where and when were you born?
Line 3
KF: I was born in Boise, Idaho in 1953.
Line 4
CS: How many siblings do you have?
Line 5
KF: Four.
Line 6
CS: Four, okay. And what did your parents do for work?
Line 7
KF: My mother spent most of her career working in the government at HUD and my father was a manufacturer representative and he traveled alot.
Line 8
CS: Okay, I will get on with some questions about your life and the long 1960's. So how we do it is 1955-1975, that whole period.
Line 9
KF: Oh okay.
Line 10
CS: Yes, so how did the Vietnam War affect your community?
Line 11
KF: Well, actually Idaho is a very conservative state and when my husband graduated from college, I think after he graduated they started the draft. He was very anti-war, and so was I, and he ended up getting a conscientious objector, being classified as that, and went to the peace corps for two years. But he told me, and I always found this interesting, he told me that the people at the draft office really worked with him so he could go to Africa instead of to Vietnam and I thought that was interesting.
Line 12
CS: That is interesting
Line 13
KF: Because I would assume that the recruiters and the people that work with you in Idaho, fairly conservative, may not tend towards helping people out that much
Line 14
CS: So to clarify he got drafted and then chose to not-
Line 15
KF: Right, and that's a big deal. You've never experienced the draft and it really makes you more aware of the war and the death. Right now we don't hear much about our soldiers or the fatalities and without a draft, most of them are lower-class people that don't really have alot of money to go to school. I think that is the big difference. You knew people who went to Vietnam, and you knew people who came home and had PTSD. In my community, or at least from what I read and my interpretations was that it was a useless war, we were never going to win, I was not sure why we were there, and the government was not open about how many people were dying. One of the things I really remember was that I learned that North Vietnam and South Vietnam came to a truce but Nixon decided to have them put it off so he could win the election. There was a lot about that war that did not make me happy, and I think that I mentioned to you that there were probably ten years where I could not say the pledge of allegiance because I was so ashamed of our country.
Line 16
CS: Yes, you had mentioned that. Going back to the draft: were you scared? Well, did you have brothers?
Line 17
KF: Yeah, they weren't drafted and Gary, my husband, was my older brother's bestfriend and I knew him because he would come obver to visit Ron, my brother. He would walk through the house and go "hi". I was just the little sister. That's what I remember of Gary, so I didn't really know a lot about his experiences with the draft until after he got back. I did hear that he had gone to Sierra Leone.
Line 18
CS: For the Peace Corps, right?
Line 19
KF: Yes
Line 20
CS: Growing up, were you afraid? Was there a sort of fear from the draft knowing that there was a possibility of your brothers or anyone you knew being drafted?
Line 21
KF: Yeah, it was a consideration. I would have to say the Cold War was much scarier, personally, and for people I knew.
Line 22
CS: How so?
Line 23
KF: I am trying to think back, let's see. Kennedy was asssinated in 1963. The Cold War had been going on since the end of WWII and Russia decided that they wanted to put nuclear missles in Cuba. So there was a six day period where, I mean literally, Russian ships with nuclear missles were headed toward Cuba and the United States ships were headed toward the Russian ships. Probably for a whole year they had nuclear bomb drills, which affects you because, it's like, if there is a nuclear bomb you are supposed to get under your desk or line up against the wall with your head down in your arms. I was fairly young, but I always thought, "How is this going to protect me from a nuclear bomb?". I was smart enough to know that, I had seen the big white cloud. But I was still young enough that I remember I was worried about not finding my parents. I decided I would just go home and they would drive and pick me up, so my logic was not real clear. But during the Cuban Missle Crisis, there were several high level officers and politicians that went into hiding, or bunkers. It was a tense time because you did not know which one was going to pull the trigger first. But Kennedy stood up and didn't back down, and the Russians turned around. It was very tense for everyone.
Line 24
CS: And that was tense everywhere you went?
Line 25
KF: Oh yes. and I remember, for an example, the first time I realized I was just a common person was, I had a friend, a rich friend and I went to play with her and she showed me her bomb shelter. I thought, "Wow it would be nice to be rich". It was underground and they had all their food stacked up and I thought, "Wow they are lucky". Because it was just like "Too bad you don't have enough money for that but, whatever".
Line 26
CS: That was in Boise? Someone had a bomb shelter?
Line 27
KF: Yes, quite a few people did. Of course, you never thought true at that age "What are they staying alive for if they survive?".
Line 28
CS: Yeah
Line 29
KF: They were really rich in my mind.
Line 30
CS: Well, I mean, if they had the means to just build a bomb shelter.
Line 31
KF: Oh, yeah. Out of concrete, it was nice. They had a few pictures in there, probably nicer than my house.
Line 32
CS: Do you remember the threats of nuclear warfare in forms of media? Like TV or comic books if you were a kid, or any other book?
Line 33
KF: I didn't read comic books. I was aware of the "mushroom cloud" and saw pictures of the testing in Nevada where it just scorches the whole Earth and people burn with their skin on and, I mean it is a total wipeout. I remember that, and I didn't have a bomb shelter.
Line 34
CS: So what were you to do. We can move on to civil rights. If you can remember, do you remember how it felt to watch the Civil Rights Movement unfold throughout the 1960s.
Line 35
KF: Yeah, I remember the war protests and I remember the march over Selma's bridge. But in Boise, Idaho I knew one black in highschool and I thought it was really neat because we made him homecoming king. So, I did not have a lot of black experience, but I was certainly aware of the discrimination. I remember hearing about Emmett Till getting murdered, lynched, it was horrible. I remember when Kennedy changed the laws to make integration a law. I remember seeing this one little black school girl being taken to a white school with armoured men all around her. I remember the Governer of Mississippi getting on TV and he said, "White now, white forever, no segregation over my dead grave". So you were aware of it. Boise, Idaho was pretty sheltered.
Line 36
CS: So how did you learn about those events? What were you reading or listening to?
Line 37
KF: I read a lot and I watched a lot of news. I have just always been a curious person about current events.
Line 38
CS: Living in Boise, and that being more of a rural area, what was that community's reaction to the Civil Rights Movement?
Line 39
KF: Well, I remember hearing from a few adults that they wished Martin Luther King would just shut up, settle down, and be happy. So there was very little understanding and still is not a huge understanding of what it is like to be black in America. I don't remember a lot of people talking to me about it. My parents weren't necessarily prejudice, except against the Japanese which always cracked me up. As I've grown up I realized that was because of the WWII, but I don't know. Did that answer your question?
Line 40
CS: Yeah, it does. And actually, we were talking about that prejudice against Japanese people today in class.
Line 41
KF: I know, when my mom would say that... I never heard, except for Martin Luther King to settle down... I never heard prejudice comments from my parents, ever. Except the Japanese. I would just kinda laugh and go, "what's the deal with the Japanese?". But then as I have gotten older, I realized she was a product of WWII.
Line 42
CS: Yeah, that kind of shaped a lot of people.
Line 43
KF: I think it shaped her. It is kind of interesting that there wasn't that long held prejudice against the Germans. Isn't that interesting?
Line 44
CS: Yeah and we were talking about it and it is because the people, they talk about the European front and you go there and they are all singing Christmas songs, they look like them, they all have the same cultural norms.
Line 45
KF: Exactly, they look like them.
Line 46
CS: Yeah, and then when you go to the Pacific front, they were calling them savages and whatnot.
Line 47
KF: Horrible, horrible drawings of Japanese people and how they were depicted.
Line 48
CS: Oh, you mean in propaganda?
Line 49
KF: Yes.
Line 50
CS: Do you remember MLK's assination?
Line 51
KF: Yes. I remember Kennedy's assassination shortly after the Cuban Missle Crisis, and I remember Martin Luther King Jr.'s assassination and I remember the assassination of Lee Harvery Oswald, who shot Kennedy. They were moving him to a different jail, and a guy just walked up and shot him with all these police around. I remember Robert Kennedy getting shot. So, you know, there was a lot of violence and unrest. But I do remember Martin Luther King.
Line 52
CS: What do you remember about that?
Line 53
KF: I remember his plea for peaceful marches. He kind of tried to mirror Ghandi, and so he was very much into peaceful change. I remember the Black Panthers, who were radical and against Martin Luther King because they thought he was moving too slow. They would go in and bomb some stuff, I don't remember a lot of people dying. So there was even extremes in the black movements.
Line 54
CS: Yeah, and you said how, especially the older generations, would say that MLK needed to settle down. So, I am sure their reactions to groups like Black Panthers-
Line 55
KF: "What is he complaining about" [laughing].
Line 56
CS: That's interesting
Line 57
KF: And frankly, I think he could still find things to complain about today.
Line 58
CS: Do you remember your community's reaction to MLK, or the world's? Was it mostly sadness and greif during that time?
Line 59
KF: You know, Cooper, I just remember watching it on TV and hearing people who knew him talk. I lived in Boise, Idaho. No, I don't remember a lot of people talking about it. I do remember people being extremely sad and in shock over JFK's assassination. They weren't happy, I suppose about Martin Luther King but they just weren't as tied into it. I never heard anybody mention it, to tell you the truth.
Line 60
CS: That makes sense. Moving on to culture: What forms of media were prevelent in your life during this time? This can mean anything. I mean, TV, music.
Line 61
KF: Mostly TV, newspapers, and magazines. I remember reading Newsweek a lot. I can even remember that we were the second family on our block that got a TV. So, it was reletavely a new medium. We watched test pattern for about four days, we were all excited. Do you know what that is?
Line 62
CS: No.
Line 63
KF: Test pettern is a thing they used to do to make sure you are getting the signal, and it is just a black screen. So, that was exciting.
Line 64
CS: That is funny. What did you watch on TV?
Line 65
KF: I don't remember any favorites, I can't.
Line 66
CS: That's okay. Was music a big part of your life?
Line 67
KF: Yeah, a lot. I was just thinking. I would watch TV when the Beatles were on TV or anytime musicians were on TV. We used to have to buy 45s, which are very small records and play 45s. You would go buy one when it came out. I was thinking about this project and I heard on the radio that the day after JFK was assassinated, the Beatles came out with "She Loves Me", and just started thinking, "Wow. Look at how music changed from 'She Loves Me' to Woodstock". Huge, huge. I would go to concerts if I could, or even if I wasn't supposed to [laughs]. So music was a big part of it.
Line 68
CS: What artists did you mostly listen to?
Line 69
KF: The Who, Crosby Stills & Nash, Neil Young. Pretty much anybody that was at Woodstock, but I did not make it to Woodstock.
Line 70
CS: Do you remember how influencial that was?
Line 71
KF: Yeah, I was jealous [laughs]. I look back on it now, it was kind of a mess. But yeah, I remember it. It was pretty influencial.
Line 72
CS: Was it a big controversy?
Line 73
KF: Yes, "All those dirty hippies taking up iall that land with their long, scrappy hair and their free-lovin drugs. Why are we even hearing about this?". You know, I was pretty young when the hippies started becoming a force and I always looked at them as being enlightened, being very politically aware, being activists, mobilizing, trying to find a better way, and as the years went on, so many of them actually just became drug addicts. So, I got a little disillusioned with the hippies.
Line 74
CS: Okay, I'm back. Kaye's phone died, so we are just going to resume where we left off. Hopefully it's still working. We left off on your experience and influence of the counterculture that was prevelant in the hippies.
Line 75
KF: Yes, and I did want to clarify on the counter culture. I think that there were a lot of good people there that accomplished aazing things but my experience, I dont mean to make everyone seem the same, but my experience was a lot of people got addicted.
Line 76
CS: Yeah, thank you for that clarification. That was your experience, so that is completely valid. Were there people in your life that were interested in that counter culture movement?
Line 77
KF: Well, my husband. Big time. He was politcal buff and an English and History major, so he had a lot of knowledge. He learned a lot in the Peace Corps and I think that is initially what I liked about him. A lot of people said he was really good-looking and I honestly did not notice because I liked his mind so much. I need bright people around me because I'm not that bright.
Line 78
CS: Yes you are! I guess that brings me to my next question which brings up gender in that time and the norms surrounding that. So, what was dating like?
Line 79
KF: I didn't date that much, but it was obviously conventional. You know, going to a dance, riding in the back seat, the boys open the door, the girl look pretty and smell nice. One of the reasons that Gary and I got along so well is that the first sign he gave me lit up and it said "bullshit" because I was the first woman to ever call him on it. So I was pretty, and still am, assertive. You know, never bought into the role of "women", that's why I can't cook [laughs].
Line 80
CS: Was that becoming more normal in that time?
Line 81
KF: No, you know, the women's movement truly was a movement. It didn't just change overnight. All of these things took time and we are still seeing the effects of the Me Too Movement. But, there were a lot of people who thought the woman's place was in the home. Still, a lot of women went out and burned their bras. I never did that.
Line 82
CS: What do you mean? What is that?
Line 83
KF: I just remember that they used to have marches, women's movement marches and they would burn their bras while they were marching. Or marched without a bra on. It was a point of being liberated, you know.
Line 84
CS: I guess that's a pretty good way to show that [laughs]. I haven't heard about that.
Line 85
KF: At least it brought attention to the cause [laughs].
Line 86
CS: I am sure a lot more people listened.
Line 87
KF: Oh a lot more watched. You know that, anyway.
Line 88
CS: Do you remember when women did gain more rights, such as access to birth control or credit cards?
Line 89
KF: I think that they invention of birth control is what played a major part in what was "sex, drugs and rock&roll". You know, because that is unheard of. You don't have to worry about getting pregnant. But, I think that contributed to the movement. Does that answer your question?
Line 90
CS: Yeah, I was just asking what you remember of it, so yes.
Line 91
KF: But, again, it is like any movement. It is still ongoing. The Me Too Movement, black justice. We are moving towards a more perfect union. We are just on a little detour here.
Line 92
CS: Makes sense. Did you experience any of those feminist movements when you were in the workforce?
Line 93
KF: Oh yeah. I was going to college and I was sitting at a bar waiting for my friend to get off work and the manager dropped by and said something like, "Well you're not much to look at but we need some help". I went "Okay. Gee, thanks" [laughs]. It was horrible, just horrible. The big joke was to do a "man sandwhich wih women", all the men had notches on their belts. It was very, very misogynitic.
Line 94
CS: Yeah , I guess that shows how far we've come in a way.
Line 95
KF: Yeah.
Line 96
CS: Okay, my final question for you is: we now know how influential the 1960s was. Did it feel that earth-shattering to you at the time?
Line 97
KF: Yes, it did. I think the main thing was the marching. All the people gathering and marching for a cause. We don't really see that anymore and it really just brings it to the forefront.
Line 98
CS: Yeah. Well, thank you for your time Kaye. Those are all the questions I have, so I apreciate you and sharing your experiences.
Line 99
KF: Well thank you for your time.

Kay-Hall

Line 0
Connor Dremann: Hello, my name is Connor Dremann, and this is my nineteen-sixties oral history interview with my grandmother Kay Hall. Alright, let's start with. When and where were you born, and where were you grew up?
Line 1
Kay Hall: My name is Marjorie K. Hall. I was born in the mining time of Kellogg, Idaho. I lived in the nearby town of Wallace, Idaho when the town was booming with the mine business. This is where my father worked through my entire childhood. Growing up there was always something to do around town. I mostly helped my mom look after my 4 younger siblings. I was born first in my family and am a member of the silent generation. I attended an all-girls school with the graduating class of 11.
Line 2
CD: What was education like? Were there any challenges?
Line 3
KH: When I was at school, education was sitting in my seat and listening to what the teacher had to say. Every girl educated back then was for a test, it wasn't why things happened just know this information, and we pretty much worked on the knowledge base. School was challenging in its own way. You mostly got the information from a textbook and had very few group discussions. It was uncomfortable to ask questions in the classroom, unlike today. Although I do feel like I received a great education. There was not a lot of extended curriculum like today, such as electives. There was no preparation for high-level math in high school, it was not taught in the lower grades. This was coming from a parochial(Catholic) school. Growing up as a girl, they would influence us to pursue the career paths, of secretary, bank teller, teacher, nurse, nun, or housewife. Although they did not discourage us from receiving higher education. In my high school graduating class, I was one of the few students to continue my education and finish my degree. I started my college career at North Idaho Junior College, where I received my provisional certificate to start teaching after two years of education after that I would go back to summer school, every year, working towards my degree at the University of Idaho. Finally, in 1966, I received my BS from the University of Idaho. I then taught in Las Vegas for one year and then decided I'd like to go abroad to teach. So I taught for the Department of Defense, first in the Asia theater in Okinawa, then later moved to Germany to teach.
Line 4
CD: Did you enjoy it? What were the other countries, perceptions of the United States?
Line 5
KH: I taught in Okinawa in 1967 I was on an Air Force Base, so I had very little contact with the native Okinawans, so I really don't know how they felt about us. I felt, I think they felt like they were there to be subservient to us, because we all had to have a maid, and they worked in the officer's clubs and all that. This was also at the height of the Vietnam War. The base was packed with troops and their families. Because we were so crowded we had to have split sessions at the elementary school. The typical day was 12:30-5 with a 15-minute break. Germany is a little different story. I could pick up on questions like, Why were we in Vietnam, and things like that. They were they wanted to question us. And most of the people at that time wanted to know about the Kennedys overseas. They would always ask me like I was personal friends with them, you know, and they people abroad, really liked JFK. In 1969, this is where I met my husband and we got engaged. I knew this was when I was ready to start my life with my husband as we moved back to the United States. Back to Georgia where we would start our family. I had your mom in 1970.
Line 6
CD: Did the Civil Rights Movement impact your community or your personal life? Were you involved in or affected by any of the events?
Line 7
KH: As far as the Civil Rights Movement's having an impact on me or my community? I don't think so, because I, at that time was either living in northern Idaho or Montana, in all-white communities, so no one really discussed it, as far as me personally, when I watched on the evening news, Walter Cronkite and he was showing the riots in Selma, Alabama at the different station of Martin Luther King at Malcolm X, and the little children that were killed at the Baptist Church of Birmingham, Alabama. That really affected my life and I kind of became very prejudiced against anybody in the south, thinking that they all treated everybody treated black people like that. Little did I know that I would marry a Southerner and move to the South.
Line 8
CD: That's interesting. role did music play in shaping the culture around you? Did you have any favorite artists or memorable concerts back in the 60s?
Line 9
KH: Music was very important to all people. I think no matter where you live, everybody loved to dance. Everybody loved to go to clubs and dance from country western clubs to rock and roll clubs. When I was in the 60s, the first concert I can remember I ever went to see was Pat Boone, and I thought that was really something I'd never been to a concert before my life. And then that was about it for me in the 60s, as far as going to concerts, I've always loved music. And it was so important back then because people, like I said, they dance. Some of my favorite artists were Elvis Presley, Jerry Lee Lewis, Bob Dylan, Steppenwolf, Rolling Stones, and the Beach Boys. It was a lot harder to listen to the music at home, I had to wait weeks before the records came to our local record shop. In Wallace, there was one record store and we had to wait weeks until we could purchase the new track to listen at home. Otherwise, I had to rely on the radio at home. I remember Woodstock, it had a lot of influence on the younger people and their views. It was broadcasted on TV. I haven't seen an event like this since.
Line 10
CD: Did you notice any significant changes in gender roles or women's rights during the 1960s What was your perspective on the feminist movements?
Line 11
KH: Yes, I did notice some changes during the women's movement during the 1960s I was very interested in it. I read everything I could get my hands on. And of course, at that time, you were thought of as being kind of weird or a real progressive liberal if you did that type of thing. But I was raised in a family of strong women, and I was always taught to stick up for myself. Both my mother and my maternal grandmother taught me that well, so I never let people push me around. I was never obnoxious about it, but I stood up for myself as an example. I never had a woman principal until I was in Okinawa. Administrative jobs were typically held by men. When I first started teaching school at Kalispell, the women would always come in and make the coffee in the morning, and the men never had to do anything. And finally, I said, I'm not doing it anymore until the men take their turns a small thing but it was just expected the women, waited on the men.
Line 12
CD: Were you aware of the counterculture movement? What was your reaction to the culture shift?
Line 13
KH: Yes, I was aware of it, but not part of it. I was just that much older that I wasn't in that generation that were hippies and free love and all this type of thing. However, I have a younger sister who was very much into it, with the long hair and all the makeup, short mini dresses, and things like that, she looked at the world totally different from me. Let me tell you. What I do remember about this time was how people dressed, bell bottom pants, the dresses, lots of loud, loud colors, lime green, bright lemon, fuchsia pinks, lot of color and design, big flowers. The women wore a lot of makeup, long, straight hair, and dangly earrings. I first became aware of the hippie movement when I read about and saw on TV the hate Haight Ashbury Park. My sister Mary, was very into this so I was able to experience it firsthand even though I did not participate.
Line 14
CD: Contrary to counterculture, how did the people around you feel about the Vietnam War, and how did it influence your opinions on politics or the government?
Line 15
KH: First of all, this was the first war we saw every nightly, nightly on the news. We saw the fighting. We saw the destruction. We saw what was going on. So it really had an effect on all people, all people, whether it be positive or negative. To me, it was a negative thing. My father was a World War Two vet and he was very anti-war, after being in the war, and I was anti-Vietnam, I did not see the reason for us to be there. The My Lai Massacre, the war crime by the United States Army in March of 1986, was the final nail in the coffin of my feelings towards the Vietnam War. And that's, why I expressed my opinions about that. I was very verbal about my feelings about Vietnam and mostly it was by what I saw on TV and my parents. At this time, Lyndon Johnson was our president, and I did not agree with him, sending more troops to Vietnam to be killed, and slaughtered. I did not sign anything that was Anti-war.
Line 16
KH: My younger brother was in the army at the time and I did not want anything to affect his career. And I didn't blame the young men who went to Canada to stay out of the service because it wasn't a war defending our country it was a war, we should not have been involved in in the first place my opinion. War, my thoughts and opinions change from rather conservative to far more liberal. I felt the Vietnam War was a war, fought by young men and women who came from poor families because if you had money or influence, there was a way to get out of it, ie Trump. Most of my friends were pro-Vietnam and I was one of the few that was anti, and sometimes I just had to keep my mouth shut, I did voice it when I thought it was appropriate.
Line 17
CD: Do you remember where you were when you heard about the assassinations of the prominent figure John F.Kennedy?
Line 18
KH: Yes I do, I was teaching school Kalispell, and it was lunch hour, and at that time, schools did not have school secretaries, and the phone kept ringing. and ringing and ringing in the office, and I got sick and tired of listening to it ring so I left my classroom, and went down to answer it, and it was the police and they said John F Kennedy had been shot at that time we had we did not know if he was dead or alive. Once we found out that he had died. Everybody was very sad. He was a beloved president by most people. And it just kind of made us sick to think something like this could happen in our country. That evening, when I watched, Walter Cronkite, and he announced that, indeed,Kennedy had died as a result of an assassination. He broke into tears, first time I've ever seen this happen with the National Broadcasting broadcast. At the time, the country felt insecure as we did not know what was going to happen after JFK had died.
Line 19
CD: Do you remember where you, you were, and when you heard about the assassination of Martin Luther King, Jr.
Line 20
KH: I don't really remember where I was, but I remember it very clearly. And it's terrible, as this may sound bad, I thought, another white person was guilty of the assassination. As a result of Martin Luther King's assassination, I was fearful of a lot of riots taking place in various cities in our country, and I knew that was not what he wanted because he believed in peaceful tactics. When I lived in Georgia he was a man that everyone knew. He stood up for what he believed in and was an inspiration to me. Although I would never share the same struggles as him, it helped me push the boundaries for women's equality.
Line 21
CD: do you remember where you were and when you heard about the assassination of Robert F Kennedy?
Line 22
KH: Yes, I do. I was sitting with my grandparents at that time, and I was just getting up in the morning, and I could hear the TV on in the living room, and I thought I was kind of dreaming that they were talking about John Kennedy and finding it dawned on me that they were saying, Robert Kennedy and I came out and watched the whole thing on TV. We got to see this on TV, pretty much, as it happened. This was months after Martin Luther King Jr. had gotten shot and it just felt weird how so many prominent figures were dying in such a short amount of time. There was a lot of uncertainty within the country and I was one of those people. Not sure what was going to happen but as long as my family and friends were safe that is what mattered to me at the time.
Line 23
CD: How did these three major events impact the national mood during the nineteen sixties?
Line 24
KH: I think it has made us more aware that we're not as safe as we think we are in this country, and that a lot of bad things can happen. I think up to this point I just thought I was in America and everything was okay. And we're all going to be just fine. And I realized that was not true at that particular time, and a lot of people did too. Especially with what was happening in Vietnam and the Cold War
Line 25
CD: What were your personal views on communism during the nineteen sixties, and did the Cold War affect the daily life of where you lived in the sixties?
Line 26
KH: Communism was something to be very fearful of you were always afraid that the communists were going to come and bomb us. People built bomb shelters, and they bought food to have in the bomb shelters. I remember, at school, we took drills on what to do in case we were bombed and so we kind of lived in fear. We were always, this was always on the back of our minds, you suppose they might do this to us it we were fearful of what could happen during the Cold War.
Line 27
CD: Did you ever think you had Communists around you?
Line 28
KH: Funny that you ask that, there was always the idea that someone around could indeed be Communist. I did not believe that at least where I was living because once I moved back to the small town of Coeur d'Alene Idaho, there would be no threats of communists in my area. So it was never really something that I deeply thought about even though the news would try and make you skeptical.
Line 29
CD: The Cuban Missile Crisis was a grave threat. Were you fearful, or were others around you fearful of an attack? What were your opinions on it?
Line 30
KH: Yes, I was fearful because none of us were aware that Russia was putting missiles in Cuba and when we found out, everybody thought, boy, this is it this is the big one, they're going to get us. We all kind of just had a lot of faith that Kennedy would be diplomatic enough to hopefully get us out of this mess. Here again, it made us all realize that we weren't as safe as we thought we were if this could happen right off of our shores, what was really going to keep us safe? It made us realize that we were not as isolated and insulated as we thought. This has happened in other parts of the world but it could happen here.
Line 31
CD: What was your view on the space race and the moon landing in 1969?
Line 32
KH: Well, I really wasn't aware of the space race at first, until, of course, the Russians put somebody in orbit, and John Kennedy said in one of his addresses that this was going to be a focus of his and I could still remember when they blasted off to go into space and when they landed on the moon. I could remember where I was, my family and I were hiking at Rainier National Park, and we had a transistor radio with us. It was so important, we wanted to hear all about the landing. We sat down on a rock and listened to the broadcast about the landing on the moon. And the whole time, I was thinking to myself, What if they can't get them off the moon? What are they going to do? I guess they just do what they want if they could get them off that was the end of them. They weren't going to get back home. Most people watched on their televisions but it was during the summertime so my family and I were on a trip. I was able to watch the landing later that evening on TV. What a proud moment got all Americans. It was an exciting time for America. Kind of got our minds off of war. We started to really appreciate the sciences and how important science is in education for our students that we still had, there were some things that we could do that other countries could not do.
Line 33
CD: What role did television or the radio play in shaping your opinions and what kind of television shows Did you listen to at the time?
Line 34
KH: People communicated and stayed in form by doing a lot of reading. We had people take a lot of magazines that they read. They read the Daily newspaper thoroughly and watched the nightly news, which started out at 15 minutes and actually went to half an hour. I think TV news came to reality when we started having it be up to an hour a night. Up until then, I always got my news when I went to the movie, and we saw the news in the first part of the movie called the newsreel. And what's TV came into my life. I started to realize how, what was going on in the world, affected my life. I realized exactly how small I really was when I started to realize about all these different places in the world when they came into my living group. Up until then, I'd always read about them in books, but once I saw them on TV, I just realized that I'm not all as important as I thought I was, and that I'm part of a whole for the first time in life, I started to realize I'm part of the whole thing called humanity, and that's true.
Line 35
CD: Was there any shows you enjoyed?
Line 36
KH: I watched the Billies and Mayberry, I also got a big chuckle out of laughing I think maybe that might have been my favorite show of the 60s and the Smothers Brothers show. Star Trek just came out and was something that we had not seen before. It was exciting and interesting to watch.
Line 37
CD: What major sporting events and stars do you remember in the 1960s?
Line 38
KH: At that time, we knew who all the baseball players were. It wasn't like that was kind of football back then, it was baseball. I remember when Mickey Mantle played his 2000th game. I remember who hit what seemed like year after year. The Yankees were always in the World Series. But we really knew what was going on in the World Series. That was the big sport back then like football is today. It was baseball back then, and then later in the 60s, boxing, because of Cassius Clay, who later became Muhammad Ali. Friday night boxing was on TV every Friday night, of course, and everybody watched it, perhaps, Blue Ribbon sponsored it I can remember that. Basketball was upcoming but not many people were able to watch. I always heard of the great Wilt Chamberlain or Bill Russell and the Celtics winning every season. So boxing at baseball were big sports and locally basketball.
Line 39
CD: What was your opinion on Muhammad Ali being so vocal on civil rights and the Vietnam War?
Line 40
KH: At first, I was kind of hesitant about his feelings, because I thought it was a big, big blowhard. But then I later realized he he promoted himself very well. I remember seeing him on TV, you know, talking about he was always the greatest. I'm the greatest. And I guess maybe he was one of the greatest boxers ever. He told us he was, and we believed it. And as far as his me wanting to stay out of the war, I was anti-war. and I was behind him 100%. He did not care about the consequences. He was very vocal and was willing to go to jail. Just to have his opinion heard. He believed in civil disobedience.
Line 41
CD: Was there a clear separation between church and state, unlike now?
Line 42
KH: Yes, in the 1960s there was a clear distinction between church and state. In fact, in 1963 there was a law that was passed that local governments could not require the Lord's prayer in school or any Bible readings. Up until then, teachers would read through the Bible every day. And there weren't the big churches that tried to have political influence like today, most of the churches were traditional and stuck to religious topics, and they did not bring politics into their servants.
Line 43
CD: What were some of the biggest differences in daily life like transportation compared to today?
Line 44
KH: Well, in transportation, pretty much it was a car or Greyhound bus. If you went on an airplane, that was really a big deal. people did fly that often. The first time I flew, was when I was 25, to Japan. And when they did fly out of their plate you dressed up and looked very nice. You do that was just expected. Like today we get on in our pajamas that just did not happen in the 1960s.
Line 45
CD: What was entertainment like compared to today?
Line 46
KH: Back in the sixties, entertainment was going to the movies. we did not have these big concerts like they have nowadays where I live, but maybe in the big cities they did. you might the movies might go to dances. uh, entertainment was playing cards with your neighbors, playing cards with your friends. Not like today where everything is just it fast gear, people spend more time communicating with each other, and visiting I think they do nowadays.
Line 47
CD: Looking back, what do you think was the most important or transformative moment of the 1960s for you personally?
Line 48
KH: Yeah, probably teaching overseas, really, that changed my attitude on a lot of things. Probably that looking to see how other cultures navigated life and learning about different cultures really was probably one of the biggest events in my life in the 60s. Moving from a small mining town to teaching abroad widened and changed my perspective on life. For example, I did not know Judaism was a thing until I was exposed to it.
Line 49
CD: Do you think the 1960s are often romanticized today? Or do you believe the current understanding of the era reflects its actual reality in this way?
Line 50
KH: I think it was romanticized. I think people think of the 60s young people. We all were out there smoking pot joints and doing drugs and going to concerts, kind of not working and doing as we pleased. In actuality, that was not the way things were. It's when I think we first started to see a real split in our country because people felt they could have voiced their opinions without being labeled as anti-patriotic or whatever. The Vietnam War, that's kind of started the dividing of our country. It was different, that they got out of their social norms to do what they wanted. to do with their life they did feel that they had to be buried, they had to have children, or whatever they could do what they wanted to do. positive about the 60s was the Civil Rights Movement, and giving the minorities in our country, The hope that they will be treated fairly, and the same as anybody else that lives in the country.
Line 51
CD: Are there any other events that left a mark on you or that you found interesting in the 60s?
Line 52
KH: In the 60s, yes, one was, it was the first mass shooting in the 60s, where 16 people were killed when an individual got in a tower at the University of Texas, it killed people on campus. And then that's when I first real, another time that I realized that people aren't as safe as we think we are. And of course, the Manson murders, I'll tell you, that was really something you thought, Oh, my goodness, they went in and killed all these people, and there again. It was all blamed on pot, drugs, and whatnot, which ended up being true. Another thing that I thought was interesting in the 1960s was the start of superheroes, like Batman on TV. These were the first times we saw these kinds of shows on TV. Another thing was, of course, the Cuban Missile Crisis, which we talked about a little bit earlier, and the Bay of Pigs, where we sent Cubans down to attack Cuba. It did not end well. Also, the Six-Day War was fought and won by Israeli, Israel against Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. And we've had our first black present Marshal. That's it is that it is okay. Okay, everybody was talking, towards the end decision just restarted. No, yeah, yeah, you're good. And of course, the book everybody loved could wait to get their hands on. In the late 1960s, was The Godfather, which I read many times. When the Mustang came on the market, everybody wanted to have one, and I was really disappointed because I bought a Corvair. And I thought, Oh darn, I wish I would have waited and gotten a Mustang.
Line 53
CD: If you could offer one piece of advice to younger generations based on your experience of the 1960s what would it be
Line 54
KH: From my experience in the 1960s, I would advise young people, first of all, to communicate with each other. The number way, way to get to know someone is to communicate with them, and not through technology, person to person, visiting with them, and also to realize to listen to different opinions. It's amazing how I've changed my way of thinking by listening to what other people have to say and doing some thinking after I listen to what they have to say. this may seem like a very simple thing to say, but I really feel think about how you would feel if someone said something hurtful to you. the most important word in our vocabulary is kindness. If we are kind to people, I don't think we'll regret anything we've done if we are tied to them and take care of them. Remember, we're one human race. I need that. That. and always be proud of standing up for what you believe. Don't let people run over the top of you and say, though, no I'm right. Stand up for what you think and what you believe.

John Kittredge

Line 0
JK and CH: *Brief Exchange about Consent*
Line 1
CH: How did you feel about the 1960's? When you look back now what sort of things come to mind?
Line 2
JK: Well there was a lot going on, a lot of conflict. The Vietnam War had grown significantly. The resnetnment the Protests against it. Socially, people had made the discintion between War and Peace. Peace at home and soldiers at war. It was a crazy time. I had been partying and doing a lot of crazy stuff.
Line 3
CH: Do you still see it like this? I know in history its seen as a crazy time, but personally at the time you saw it the same way?
Line 4
JK: I don't see I-- I think life sometimes evolved based on the cirumstances, the events. The war, The Vietnam War did not end until 1975. And a lot of people had died protesting the war. A lot of colleges, things like that. Young people like myself, I joined the military volunentarily but there was a lot more people who were afraid of war. They did not want to participate in it. And did not believe in that particular war for sure. It was just a different time. Very different than WW2 or the Korean war. Back then our country itself was more behind it. Vietnam was awful. Even guys like me that were coming home much after the war still got spit on and called "baby killers" and things like that. That resentment, that anger. The 60's were fun though, none of the technoligies we have now were avaliable. No cellphones or anything like that at our level. Technology was much different in those days I rode a bike and delivered newspapers door to door and you don't really do that anymore.
Line 5
CH: Yeah. What else do you feel like is different? Other than just cultural changes?
Line 6
JK: I would say the food has changed. The concept of chains of places, for example I worked at the thirteenth Mcdonalds in the country- in Los Angeles. That chain was new. A hamburger was 29 cents.
Line 7
CH: Oh, wow. I guess another thing just kind of a left turn on you, it is not as deep neccesarily as the other questions but what was the social life like back then? What was dating like? Is it different than it would be today?
Line 9
CH: Yeah I get that (Laughter).
Line 11
CH: Ok, and do you feel like the cultures of the 60's and 70's were similar? Or did they change at all?
Line 12
JK: Could you repeat that please?
Line 13
CH: Oh, I am sorry, I said was the culture of the 60's or 70's different. Anything like that?
Line 15
CH: Sorry to interupt. But do you feel some of that had to do with scars from Vietnam from the 1960's?
Line 16
JK: Oh yeah. Most of the Major Music trends from that period had to do with that war. Absolutely. So many songs and groups that came out of that era were. The Doors for example, Creedence Clear Water Revival was a big one, Skynrd(Lynrd Skynrd). Southern rock kind of bands, Marshall Tucker. Bob Seager guys that went back all the bands from that era. I would say Crosby Stills and Nash was there too- they had all kind of done their own things as independent as well. I would say they had the most to say about that. Neil Young was another Anti-War person. He was against the protests. You know it's the 60's Martin Luther King was conducting march cause segragation was an issue. Your Aunt Marie was pulled out of school because mom didn't want her attending an integrated school things like that. It was a black and white issue. We knew it. When we were growing up there was a lot of conflict. Racial conflict. That is another underlying thing, it was more prevalant in the South of the United States than California(where he lived at the time). Did not really have as much impact. Marie and I didn't know any of that we were not hateful, we just understood they were different colors than us. It was not a dislike or a hate, we just accepted that they were different.
Line 17
CH: Did it feel elevated in LA?
Line 19
CH: Yeah, I guess that makes sense. A little bit more of what I was getting at was- did you notice any of the social changes at the time? Desegragation that sort of thing? Did it mean anything to you at the time? Did you care? Not Care?
Line 20
JK: I didn't notice it at the time, I think I was still too young to really understand or realize what it was. We used to make the comment that my dad wanted to be the last white guy out of Reseda. (This) because homes were selling that was the trend in those days. If a black family moved in, that whole street was up for sale. White people would move out and black people would move in. We saw with our neighborhood thats why dad wanted to be the last white guy in LA we kept thinking that they would come back, that white people would move back in and they just never did. They would move South they would move to Orange County, that was a big move in those days. But there was not as much problems between the other races- a lot of Mexican people, Spanish people around. It was not really a problem. By in large the growunps did more, we were kids. The grownups had jobs paying money to feed their families it became more about class(sophfistication). It did not matter if you were a white drunk driver or a black drunk drive, you were a drunk driver. But I don't really remember a lot of hatred.
Line 21
CH: Sorry, I did not catch that last part could you repeat it?
Line 22
JK: Yeah, I don't think people really looked at it that way with that kind of hatred. Not a lot of hatred- just nice people and not nice people.
Line 23
CH: I was just going to ask, do you think it had to do generationaly? Perhaps your parents generation cared more? And a lot of people in your generation growing up in the 60's and 70's were more apathetic is that a safe assumption?
Line 25
CH: I guess that makes a lot of sense having that generation be that way. My follow up to that would be, did you expirence a lot of different cultures in the military?People from all over the country? Not neccsarily racially.
Line 27
CH: That is, I think something to be admired about the military- the succesful mix of cultres to try to accomplish what the mission is.
Line 28
JK: Yeah, the military does not stand for crap like that. They'll be prejuidce against slackers. Against the guy with the tiny heart, the guy who can't clean his weapon. In fact, I think in today's world it is an advantage to have those different angles, those different cultures. When I made friends with people from different parts of the world, I learned a lot. I just learned things I never would have learned, that I never would've been exposed to. You can eat catfish, I didn't even know that was a thing. I did not start riding bikes(motorcycles) until a friend in the service let me borrow his. I was 19.. maybe about 22 years old I guess. Guy lent me his bike and I had ridden dirt bikes but he let me borrow it. He was a Southern guy but you know he says "you can have it yourself! Take it back out!" It was very welcoming. The other shock of the military was just how many guys died. That is the other side of it. Not from war, neccesarily- from the stres of being in the military. It gets to some guys. A guy I knew well, my roomate, died. Took his own life. Got some bad news from home and took his own life. I don't know how we could have stopped that. We never really realized it was that bad. But I knew other guys that used drugs and died from that. Man he was tough but, he died .
Line 29
CH: I was going to say, I understand that does happen to a lot of people in the service. I am not trying to draw any conclusions. Do you think especially during your era that there were some allienated soldiers, and from the uncoventional disrespect they had gotten during Vietnam and the years following?
Line 30
JK: Yeah. War in general is a horrible event. And everyone knows it. Everybody suffers, everybody is damaged. You come home damaged. What you've seen, what you've heard, what you've learned. To fight a war, the results are horrible. Some are more effected, god forbid you watch somebody get hurt. Watch somebody get shot or otherwise, it is traumatic. War has the effect of guys getting shot at and they suddenly realize how vunerable they are. The become ectoplasm. They crawl in a foxhole. They get into a gunfight its an ism. You think they've got your back, cause in the military they always have your back. That's your creed. Never let your teamates down. Go unprepared. If a guy's frozen thinking "I am just going to die" and then his team gets hurt. There is a lot of that kind of stuff.
Line 31
CH: Yeah I get that. sorry little bit of a left turn on you, getting away from the military stuff if that's alright. What were the politics like in the country at the time. I have heard it was a pretty crazy time, you being in the service but even earlier- as a high school student how did you feel about bif figures, if I asked you 50 years ago how you feel about say Kennedy or Nixon?
Line 32
JK: Well, they were powerful guys, true leaders. Any guy like that is really going to enjoy power. So, pretty much from Kennedy on a lot of those guys were untrustworthy, it was particularly traumatic when Richard Nixon was implicated because while we knew everyone was doing it he got caught. I think one of the things that impacted me was Bobby Kennedy's assination. I remember where I was when John Kennedy his brother was shot. It was terrible, a total diaster. The thing about Bobby was he was coming up and someone said "no you can't be President an....and he was killed. And that was one of the more impactful ones. Nixon they wanted to impeach. The other thing that was a conflict at the time was Nixon and the government were not able to tell what happened to comrades. A large group that I ama still a part of had to do with POW(Prisoners of war) and MIA(Missing in Action). The number has dwindled over time as DNA testing has progressed, testing and verfication-you get families that so you can identify those you find. "Oh, ok this was Michael Harris we tested his blood or DNA and it matches his" so the number(of missing) has gone doen. But it is still around 200 guys. So when they do the memorials at the ball, there is one in DC and one in Philadelphia, they do what is called a low crawl when they announce the guys who are still missing. So they"ll say "Sargent Cameron Honovich US Navy, still missing." And "John Kittredge US Army still missing," very powerful stuff. And I saw it one time where they were at 1800 soldiers and now its 200, but there is still a lot of guys missing.
Line 33
CH: Would you say there are a lot of similarities between say, you being a young man in the 60's in the service, and a young man who grew up today in the Afganistan or Iraq era?
Line 34
JK: You know, I don't know a lot of people that were active in that, in fact just one. That is really my kids' age. That is a whole other generation. I think the soldiers now are better armed, better trained, they are more accepted at home, and there are resources for them to recover later on. But still you don't do soldering for yourself, it is not a get rich plan. It has to do with pride in your country. To do something for your nation's defense. But soldiers in those events have always been proud of it. They are doing it for the love of their country. And I feel bad because they are still not well taken care of, but they are better received. They are heroes when they get back. Soldiers from my generation, from the Vietnam era were considered bad people. They weren't given a whole lot of oppurtunities, unless they met up with other soldiers. Bikers for example. A lot of those came from groups of soldiers. They had no other place to go. They would band together. That is why you will find that a lot of motorcycle guys are retired veterans. That is their way of bonding. They haven't got skills, so they would roam and do things for money.
Line 35
CH: Do you think that started with the Vietnam era?
Line 37
CH: (Laughing) Fair enough.
Line 38
JK: I certainly liked riding the motorcycles, that would have been something I was interested in doing in that time period. That kind of predates me, but it was a way to do things when you get out. Join a club, help you find some work. Go ride motorcycles, it became a passion. Of course those clubs grew from a genre of people with no sense of direction, no purpose, veterans. And those are some of the biggest rides. I have been on rides where they do what's called Rolling Thunder. That is a veterans thing, it is near the wall in DC. And that has had over a million participants through the years. They used to meet up at the Pentagon, it has a ton of extra parking. They have to do that. They have to have joining parking lots. So it got pretty crazy. And the vast majority of them, it was not specifically a military thing, were veterans. But that is where it came from. That is a powerful group. It has since become disjointed. Like all things, the leadership has started to dwindle. Absloute power creates absolute.... I don't know.
Line 39
CH: Absolute power corrupts aboslutely? Something like that?
Line 40
JK: Yeah I guess. What else youi got?
Line 41
CH: That is just about it I think.

Beverly Lousignont

Line 0
Blake Wooderson: So this is Blake Wooderson. I'm speaking to Beverly Lousignont. The date is September 21 2024 Okay, let's get into it. So let's just do some basic questions. Where were you born?
Line 1
Beverly Lousignont: I was born in The Dalles [Oregon]. And I lived in Tygh Valley [Oregon].
Line 2
BW: Can you tell me what the family dynamic was like?
Line 3
BL: Yeah, well, being the second to the oldest, the oldest girl of seven, you know, we were assigned daily chores. We all had chores. If you were old enough to walk, you know, you had daily chores, yeah. And dad was at work or hunting or fishing, you know, to provide for the family, and mom was a stay at home.
Line 4
BW: So you have six siblings in total?
Line 5
BL: Yes, six siblings.
Line 6
BW: So do you think it was a little bit like difficult growing up in such a big family? Was there any challenges?
Line 7
BL: No.
Line 8
BW: So it was all pretty fine?
Line 9
BL: Yeah, I mean, that's, you know, our parents were good parents and dad was a good provider. They provided basic essentials, they were reliable. But you know, with a family of seven, money was tight. But you know since dad hunted and fished, we always had plenty to eat, and mom was a good cook.
Line 10
BW: Right. Okay, let's switch up the questions a little bit. So the next question I'd like to ask is, what were you doing when you were, like in your teens, like your later teens?
Line 11
BL: Drinking beer. In school. I had different jobs. I ironed for people, I babysat, and worked at the county fair.
Line 12
BW: Oh wow. It sounds like you did a lot of work. Where did you work? Was it in Tygh Valley or somewhere else?
Line 13
BL: After I graduated in 70', I went to work in The Dalles at a nursing home.
Line 14
BW: How long did you work there?
Line 15
BL: I worked there, probably 3 years.
Line 16
BW: Did you like working there?
Line 17
BL: Yeah, I mean it was fine. It was a good work site, and I had friends there. So, you know, it was, it was easy, yeah, you know, it was kind of hard working with older people, because, you know, some of them had died during the time I was there.
Line 18
BW: That must have been really difficult.
Line 19
BL: It was, emotionally. And then I got a job at an insurance and real estate company, Kargl, Elwood, and Geiger
Line 20
BW: Oh really, And then did you go to college?
Line 21
BL: Well, I moved when I got married and moved to Le Grande [Oregon].
Line 22
BW: What did you study there?
Line 23
BL: Pre-Law.
Line 24
BW: Oh, that's really interesting. And then did you do anything with pre-law?
Line 25
BL: No. I mean, I worked for a couple government programs that worked with seniors and disabled. And then in 76' I got a job at Union Pacific Railroad.
Line 26
BW: When did you start working for CPS [Certified Personnel Service] or ODOT, or what you're doing right now?
Line 27
BL: In 82'.
Line 28
BW: Oh really, so you've been doing that for awhile?
Line 29
BL: In 92' the railroad downsized their clerical division, then I was hired by the gal who owns Certified Personnel and became the manager. And in 70' or no, I'm sorry. I'm forgetting my years. In 94' I had grown CPS where I owned 40% of it because she didn't really, I mean CPS was just a small company. They were just doing clerical and when I started working, I expanded it to work with construction sites and do labor stuff.
Line 30
BW: Oh wow. Sounds like you did a lot in that short time.
Line 31
BL: Yes. And so she says, "Well, I can't continue this relationship where as you grow the company, you become owner, because you're going to end up owning it all." So she says, "I'll sell it to you." And so I bought her out for $40,000 and now we gross about 7 million a year.
Line 32
BW: Yeah, you really grew the company a lot. Was that a lot of hard work?
Line 33
BL: Well, it was in the sense that you had to watch the market trends, right? And that's when we expanded and started doing flagging for ODOT. And then we also did work for wildland fires.
Line 34
BW: So you really did a variety of expansion on the company.
Line 35
BL: Yeah, it's like, we had to expand our services and having labor pool like we did. We even did derailments for Union Pacific Railroad when they had derailments and they had goods on the ground, we would hire laborers to go out and help clean up the stuff that had to be done by hand.
Line 36
BW: It's a lot of hands on work, I'm guessing.
Line 37
BL: Yeah. I mean, then trying to hire people, you know day labor stuff really was pretty easy because there was people available who were either on unemployment or had some kind of disability to come out and do short jobs. And we paid well. You know, that was the key to a lot of it. We paid more than minimum wage.
Line 38
BW: You guys have night workers too? Is that a little harder to find people to work for?
Line 39
BL: For night work, no. Not really.
Line 40
BW: So they're all pretty available?
Line 41
BL: I mean, you did what you could because we had a good reputation and people liked working for us. If there was travel, we, you know, reimbursed them for mileage and travel, and sometimes we even provided rides if that was necessary.
Line 42
BW: Oh really. It sounds like you do a lot for your workers.
Line 43
BL: Yep. And we had offices in Baker, La Grande, Hermiston, and Redmond.
Line 44
BW: That's a lot of locations. Was it only one location when you started?
Line 45
BL: Yes.
Line 46
BW: It's very interesting how you grew the small company into a multi million dollar company.
Line 47
BL: Yeah, I mean it was really pretty easy to do because of having prime contractors. Yeah, seven, you know, Union Pacific Railroad, ODOT. We got in with some really good companies that needed the services that we provided.
Line 48
BW: That's all very interesting stuff that you have to talk about. Okay, I think let's switch up again on the questions. So, going back to when you were younger, I assumed you watched TV shows. I was just wondering, do you remember what you were watching at the time?
Line 49
BL: Wow, I, well it was in the mornings when we were cleaning house, doing dishes, breakfast. You know, mom had TV on and she was watching soap operas and so as soon as our chores were done, we were basically kicked out of the house. Not literally, but you know, we were free to go. And we would go see our friends and go to Tygh Creek and fish and swim or just hang out. We were outside a lot and then we would return home for dinner.
Line 50
BW: Oh, really?
Line 51
BL: Yeah, but we were always in Tygh Valley with friends, so if our parents needed to check up on us, it was really simple to do because it was a lot smaller town so you didn't really do as much. And then in the evenings, after we had dinner and did the dishes and took our baths, you know there was, what was that space show?
Line 52
BW: Was it Star Trek?
Line 53
BL: No, it was way before then. I can't remember the name of it. Or gunsmoke, or some kind of family show.
Line 54
BW: So you guys watched a lot of western shows?
Line 55
BL: Yes western and whatever was on TV. And we didn't watch a lot of TV, I don't think more than maybe an hour or two.
Line 56
BW: Oh really. You definitely watched less TV than I do.
Line 57
BL: Yes, very much.
Line 58
BW: So, did you ever watch like Gilligan's Island or The Brady Bunch?
Line 59
BL: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Those are pretty good shows. I like watching those ones. I mean, they were like family shows where, you know, subject matter was pretty interesting.
Line 60
BW: Did you see like any connection to real world events, or like see it on TV?
Line 61
BL: Very little news. There was like when JFK was running for president, we did go to The Dalles and watched his debate.
Line 62
BW: Oh wow. Was it not televised?
Line 63
BL: No. In person. It was really cool.
Line 64
BW: How long was the rally or whatever it was?
Line 65
BL: It was like a town hall. You know, where he was at one of the middle schools there. I think it was The Dalles Middle School and there was lots of people.
Line 66
BW: Well, that must have been really exciting to see a major event.
Line 67
BL: It really was. He was a good speaker. But you know, as far as news and stuff like that, I mean, you had Jane Fonda who had a pretty big hit. "These boots are made for walking", yeah, and so when she [Jane Fonda] began her rally against Vietnam, it really didn't sit well because it just felt like it was propaganda. She getting her name out there to talk against the war.
Line 68
BW: That's really interesting because since the Vietnam War was kind of a controversial topic at the time, how did you feel about it?
Line 69
BL: Well, my brother was there and some people that I had gone to school with, so it was, it was more support for them because they were there.
Line 70
BW: So were you scared for them?
Line 71
BL: I mean, not really knowing, you know the schematics of the death. Roy [oldest sibling] was on the navy ship. So he wasn't on the ground and in the fighting, combat of guns and bombs and stuff like that. And he wrote home pretty often. You know, it wasn't scary in that respect because him writing home was the only communication that we had about what was going on.
Line 72
BW: That's weird that it was so secretive and not mentioned in the public.
Line 73
BL: Well, it's probably was on the news, but like I said, that wasn't a part of our daily viewing.
Line 74
BW: How old were you when Roy enlisted?
Line 75
BL: I would have been 16 and he was 18.
Line 76
BW: How did Roy feel about going into the war?
Line 77
BL: I don't know if he ever really expressed it other than, I mean, it was a mandatory thing, and you had to go. You have to support your country and everything. And we had uncles, our dad's brothers. There was four of them that was in the military, most of them were in the Air Force.
Line 78
BW: So they were flying planes and everything?
Line 79
BL: Yes.
Line 80
BW: Were they doing that over in Vietnam or was that in previous wars?
Line 81
BL: I don't know if they were involved in Vietnam. I know that, oh I don't know. I'm thinking that maybe WW2. So just having military relative, it was, it wasn't controversial as being negative.
Line 82
BW: Right. Did you ever receive any letters from Roy or your other family members?
Line 83
BL: Mom got the letters. It was to the family. I know when I graduated, Roy sent me a graduation gift, and it was a, I think it was a Seiko watch and it was orange, and I still have it.
Line 84
BW: That's really nice of him.
Line 85
BL: And then when he got out, he was in San Diego for a while and I went down to see him and went to an Elton John concert.
Line 86
BW: That sounds fun. Who was your favorite band to listen to?
Line 87
BL: Probably the Beach Boys.
Line 88
BW: Did you go see them in concert too?
Line 89
BL: No. That wasn't something I did.
Line 90
BW: So you didn't go to many concerts then?
Line 91
BL: Yeah. I went with Lois [Third oldest sibling] a few times in Portland [Oregon]. Can't remember who it was. We went to a lot of comedy shows.
Line 92
BW: Do you remember who you saw?
Line 93
BL: Yes, but I can't remember his name. He's the one that would smash that watermelon.
Line 94
BW: Oh, I know who you're talking about but I can't remember his name either.
Line 95
BL: It'll come to me. But when he was just starting out, he was in Portland a lot and we went down there to see him. And we even went to Darcelle.
Line 96
BW: Oh. Who's that?
Line 97
BL: She was the transvestite or what do you call them? The ones that where men dress up like women.
Line 98
BW: Drag Queens?
Line 99
BL: Drag Queens. Well, you know, with Lois, you never know what you were gonna get.
Line 100
BW: Was Lois kind of the wild child then?
Line 101
BL: She was adventurous. She liked doing a lot of different things.
Line 102
BW: Do you remember what she was doing at the time?
Line 103
BL: She was working. Well, she was an escort. Didn't expect that could you?
Line 104
BW: Nope. I did not.
Line 105
BL: I never told you, maybe you didn't know.
Line 106
BW: I don't know. I might have heard something but I can't remember. I probably would have remembered that, so I probably wasn't told. So, do you remember how old she was when she started being an escort?
Line 107
BL: It was before she married John [2nd husband]. But it was like three or four years I would think. She did it enough for an income.
Line 108
BW: Do you know if she liked doing it? Was it just for the money?
Line 109
BL: Both.
Line 110
BW: Well, yeah, you get the best of both worlds.
Line 111
BL: She was a higher end one.
Line 112
BW: Really? Do you know how many girls she worked with?
Line 113
BL: No. She had regular clients and that's how she met her second husband [John]
Line 114
BW: That's really interesting. Who would have thought. Would you say you were more conservative than Lois?
Line 115
BL: Oh yes because I was married to John [not Lois's husband].
Line 116
BW: Okay, I think we should switch up the questions again. Let's talk about the Civil Rights Movement and what was going on. Do you remember anything going on? Was it mentioned in your house growing up?
Line 117
BL: I mean, yes. You saw all these people burning and crying, you know, it was just so unsettling to see how they could be disruptive to a community. It was in Portland and other places that we never were around directly. It was more prevalent to see it like in big cities.
Line 118
BW: Like the protests going on in Portland?
Line 119
BL: Just the burning of cars and the disrespect to the police and public property.
Line 120
BW: Did you ever go over to Portland and see the aftermath?
Line 121
BL: No, you just heard about it. Just saw it on TV a little bit, kind of just had no desire to be around that kind of stuff.
Line 122
BW: Right. It's kind of scary when there's chaos going on.
Line 123
BL: Yes and the chaos did not help influence the powers to be to get away from that to stop the war.
Line 124
BW: Did you see any type of segregation growing up or any conflicts going on?
Line 125
BL: No. Our dad was from Missouri and where they grew up with blacks. I don't know if there was like for them [African Americans]. And it was just not that it influenced my thinking. It was just you knew that your dad and your uncle didn't have anything nice to say about them. They were like second class people. We didn't have to deal with it. I mean, we had Indians, the Warm Springs Indians in Tygh Valley, but they were a part of the community. So it wasn't like whites and browns.
Line 126
BW: Since it's a smaller community, you kind of have to be a little closer together I would imagine. I would say living in a smaller community has a big advantage just because you know everyone and you don't have to worry about anything bad happening.
Line 127
BL: I don't think we ever had a negro family in Tygh Valley or remember seeing them in The Dalles, but you, with the Indians, they lived there. They were old time residents of Tygh Valley. So it wasn't like they were moving in, and you had controversy of them coming to your white settlement. And we had community things. We had Friday nights. We had pinochle and the lodge, and it was a family thing. I would take desserts and you would play cards. You would have desserts. Saturday nights, there was dances at the Grange Hall, and it was a family thing. It was more inclusive than people bitching about their kids being on Facebook and not having an activity that would draw them away from it.
Line 128
BW: Right.
Line 129
BL: You know, we had parades, we had school sports. We had family picnics and fishing trips and just activities to draw you away from the TV, I guess.
Line 130
BW: So was the news on a lot on the TV?
Line 131
BL: Well, maybe before dinner but I don't remember. I don't remember much TV. Even up into my 20s when I was married. You watched special entertainment programs. There really wasn't the hype on news.
Line 132
BW: Oh, so were you listening to music or looking at magazines or any type of media?
Line 133
BL: Not really. The only time you maybe listen to music was in the car traveling.
Line 134
BW: Did you guys have like a record player or anything like that?
Line 135
BL: We did. We had a really nice pioneer entertainment center, but that wasn't something you did, switching on the TV or music.
Line 136
BW: Well, I think the interview has come to an end. Do you have any last comments or anything to add?
Line 137
BL: It was a calmer peace of mind. Growing up and being a young adult, you didn't have bullying. You didn't have other influences about the clothes you wore or didn't wear. You know, we took the bus to school and sometimes maybe a friend had the parents' car for the day, hopped a ride with them. But it was a simple life. It was, you went to school to learn, and that was it.
Line 138
BW: Because the media was new and it wasn't as prevalent as it is now, where you can share information from everywhere and have to deal with people judging you and everything.
Line 139
BL: Yeah, and having an opinion about it, I think the only outside media stuff I remember in high school that we got to watch the last few games of the World Series. It was a simpler life
Line 140
BW: Well, thank you so much Bev for doing this interview.
Line 141
BL: You're welcome Blake. I'm glad I shed some light on the family history.
Line 142
BW: Well, we're gonna have to talk about that later.
Line 143
BL: All right, I'll talk to you later.

Geraldine Stamper

Line 0
Tyler Slick: Hi, my name is TS*, I am here today to interview my grandfather, Geraldine Stamper, My grandfather way born in 1946 would make the 60's most of his teenage years. How are you doing today Grandpa?
Line 1
Geraldine Stamper: I'm doing well, happy to be here and help you out.
Line 2
TS: Amazing, I am happy to be here and learn more about your life in the early days.
Line 3
GS: Well, I have lots of stories for ya kid.
Line 4
TS: Amazing, well I will start out by asking, where were you born?
Line 5
GS: I was born in Clearwater Valley Hospital in Orofino Idaho where I was raised in a 2 bedroom apartment with my sister and my mother. My Father passed at a very young age in my life due to lung cancer.
Line 6
TS: I am very sorry to hear that, so you grew up in Orofino your whole life?
Line 7
GS: Yes, I graduated from Orofino High school and stayed here once I came back from Vietnam.
Line 8
TS: How was your experience at Vietnam, how long were you there?
Line 9
GS: I was only deployed once thankfully in March of 1972. I was there for about 7 months where I was a mechanic for the airborne unit. I was never on the front lines of danger but back a ways where we would have units bring their planes to us for us to fix. I was a part of a small team with a couple of other guys who I am still in contact with today. All of us were there less the 9 months and were brought back in November.
Line 10
TS: That's amazing, I am very thankful for your service and am very happy that you and your team were able to make it back from that war safely. Is there anything specific about the war that you enjoy thinking back on, or what you least enjoy thinking back on?
Line 11
GS: I personally try not to think about it too much and try to live my life. There was a lot of sadness in my life in those times that I wish didn't happen. I do enjoy thinking back to the first couple of years when we all came back to the US and we would meet up once a year in Vegas to spend time with each other and catch up.
Line 12
TS: I am very sorry to hear that and I am glad you are past thinking about what happened. I think that is very cool that you guys did that, do you still try to continue to see each other?
Line 13
GS: We have not been able to meet for about 6 or 7 years now but us old folk still try to call when we can.
Line 14
TS: That is awesome I am glad to hear it, I got one more question then we can move off from this topic if that works with you?
Line 15
GS: Sounds great, sorry for not having much to say about my experience there.
Line 16
TS: Don't worry about it I appreciate you sharing how you feel about what you can. And again very grateful for your service. The last question I had about it was how you felt about the Cold War and if this influenced you into wanting to fight in Vietnam.
Line 17
GS: The Cold War was a very real and scary thing all over the US. I remember that a lot of my fellow soldiers had family members or themselves who had fought a part in that war and that fueled them for the Vietnam war. I personally didn't want to be deployed as well as many others but I am glad that I was able to do my part when I was there. Coming back from war gave me a different perspective on what war was, so knowing more information I felt more safe coming home and faithful that we could finish the Cold War in peace.
Line 18
TS: I'm really glad to hear that, speaking of faith, how much did religion play a role in your life? Did you go to church?
Line 19
GS: Religion played a hugely significant role in many people's lives during this time, mine included. Church attendance was more common back then, especially in smaller towns like Orofino. I grew up going to church every Sunday, and it wasn't just a religious experience, it was also about the community that we had in our small town. Church gatherings were social events as much as they were spiritual, and many people that I knew would organize their lives around church activities like youth groups and the choir. In my family, faith was very important. We would say grace before meals and look at holidays like Christmas and Easter with religious significance. Church was a place where I found a sense of belonging, and it provided me with moral guidance. For many families, including mine, church was a cornerstone of life, especially earlier in the decade.
Line 20
TS: That is so amazing to hear, what was it like walking into a church back then? I assume that it is worlds different than it is today.
Line 21
GS: Oh, absolutely! Walking into a church in Orofino during the 1960s was a special experience, and it felt very different from what you'd see today. The church was very simple, but it was the heart of the community. When you walked in, the first thing you'd notice was the sound of the organ playing and all of the familiar faces of your neighbors. Everyone knew each other, so there was always a lot of friendly conversation before the service started. Most people dressed up for church back then, men wore suits and ties, and women wore dresses most of the time with hats or gloves. It was just what you did to show respect, and it made Sunday mornings feel like an important occasion. The building itself was pretty small, with wooden panels on the wall that had seen years of use. But there was something comforting about being inside like you were part of something much bigger. The service was traditional, with a choir leading the congregation, and some of my friends singing. The sermons focused on the importance of family, hard work, and living a moral life. Since Orofino was a small town, the pastor knew everyone personally, so the messages often felt very well directed toward our community. You'd hear about local events, which made it feel like the church was truly a part of everyday life. After the service was over most people didn't rush home. They'd stay around, chatting on the church steps or making plans for Sunday dinner. It was as much about the social connections as the spiritual ones. It really felt like the church was the center of everything. Things are more relaxed now, but back then, going to church was a big part of what made our community feel connected.
Line 22
TS: Wow. It seems like church really was a huge part of your life and you can very vividly think about your experience in your church. I think it is amazing how you remember exactly what the feeling was like doing back to Sunday church in the 1960s.
Line 23
GS: It was a huge part of my life and nothing that I will never forget, I love thinking back to the time my mom and dad would hold my hand and walk me to church. Very fond memories there.
Line 24
TS: That is amazing, I am very glad to hear that part of your life. When growing a little older and being in Orofino, were there a lot of civil rights movements there? Or what was your experience like with all of the Civil Rights Movements happening around you?
Line 25
GS: Orofino was and still is a very small and rugged town, so the civil rights movements felt a bit distant compared to what was happening in larger cities. We didn't see protests or marches in the streets like you would in places like the South or heard on the radio. In fact, diversity in Orofino was pretty limited, so the everyday impact of the Civil Rights Movement was not doing much to affect our town. Most of what we knew came from radio and newspapers, and even that was filtered through the lens of a small community. But even in a place like Orofino, you could feel some type of shift happening. People were talking about it more. You'd hear about Martin Luther King Jr. or see news of the marches in Selma, and it sparked conversations that all of us wanted to have. I remember our church pastor touching on the topic during sermons, mostly about treating everyone with respect and equality. For many people in Orofino, it was an eye-opening time, realizing that these issues of injustice and inequality were happening on such a large scale. That being said, change was a lot slower to reach towns like ours. The community was more insulated, and many people didn't quite grasp the idea of what was happening across the country. But as the decade progressed, even in Orofino, there was a growing awareness that the world was changing, that people were standing up for their rights in ways we hadn't seen before. So while we didn't experience the Civil Rights Movement firsthand in our streets, we were still affected by it. It shaped how we viewed the country and our place in it, and even in our small town. And it did a lot when it came to sparking conversations about fairness, justice, and the kind of world we wanted to live in.
Line 26
TS: Wow, that was amazing to hear. I think it is really cool that you could still feel the shift happening as you say when you were still in your small town. I had a good idea about the diversity inside of Idaho at this time and it makes sense that you did not see a lot of physical changes, but I think it is awesome that you would still talk about what was going on when hearing on the radio or reading it in the newspaper.
Line 27
GS: It was a good time, we didn't have cell phones to look at all day so we had to talk to each other. Some of the time we thought, why not talk about something that is important?
Line 28
TS: That is awesome, I love to hear it. With there not being a lot of marches and those types of things happening in Orofino, did you experience any of the feminist movements, and how did hearing about those types of things make you feel?
Line 29
GS: Like with the Civil Rights Movement, the feminist movements in the 1960s didn't have the same kind of presence in Orofino as they did in larger cities. We didn't have rallies or protests in the streets, but there were definitely rumblings about it, especially as it started getting more attention in the media. Growing up in a conservative town, a lot of the traditional values about women's roles were still pretty strong. Women were expected to take care of the home and family, and it wasn't as common to see women pursuing careers or higher education. Not saying this is right, but this is how it was and how life was around me. Hearing about the feminist movements, especially with figures like Betty Friedan and her book The Feminine Mystique, challenged a lot of those ideas. I remember it causing a bit of a stir, even among people I knew. There was some pushback because it was new and went against what many people believed was the "natural order" of things. But at the same time, there were women in Orofino who quietly agreed with the movement, even if they weren't out there marching. You could see a subtle shift in attitudes like women starting to question whether they really had to follow the same path their mothers and grandmothers did. Personally, it made me think. I grew up with those traditional values, so at first, it felt a little unsettling to hear women fighting for things like equal pay or more opportunities outside the home. But the more I heard about it, the more I realized that it wasn't about rejecting family life or traditional values at all. It was about giving women the choice to decide what they wanted to do with their lives. And that idea, the idea of having options, started to make me feel for them and agree with parts of their movement. It wasn't an overnight change, and in Orofino, it took time for these ideas to really take root. But the feminist movement definitely had an impact, even if it was more subtle. It got people talking and thinking about the role of women in society, and slowly but surely, you started to see changes. More women were going to college or entering the workforce, and even though it wasn't happening on a large scale in Orofino, you could feel the change blowing through, just like with the other movements of the time. I remember my mom supporting this a lot at the time before her passing.
Line 30
TS: That was great to hear, I assumed that there was not a whole lot of attention right away in Orofino but I am glad to hear your perspective on how it made you and others feel. I think it is crazy to look back and see how all of that was totally normal of you when that is not the case for me in my life at all.
Line 31
GS: The world changes fast and we can be grateful and scared of that fact.
Line 32
TS: Wow, I couldn't agree more with that. Now, let's talk about some fun things that were happening in the sixties. What was dating like for you back then?
Line 33
GS: Oh, dating in the 1960s was definitely a lot of fun, but it was pretty different from what you'd see today! When I was in Ophonio there were not that many girls around and everyone knew everyone. This was a little awkward when it came to dating, but there was still a lot of love in the air and it happened all the time. When it comes to actually trying to date a girl, for one thing, everything was much more formal. If you were interested in someone, you were not able to text them or meet up, you had to muster up the courage to call their house. That usually meant speaking to their parents first, which could be the most nerve-wracking part. You'd ask permission to take their daughter out on a date, and then plan something, usually on a weekend. The dates were simple but meaningful. You would go to the movies, grab a soda at the local diner, or maybe attend a school dance. You had to be creative because there wasn't a lot of entertainment like we have now. If you were lucky, you'd go to a drive-in movie. That was always a favorite because you could watch the film from your car, which gave you a little more privacy. But there was still an unspoken set of rules about behavior, especially if the girl's parents were keeping an eye on things! And as I said before, everyone in my town knew everyone, so there was no funny business with anyone. Once you start dating someone regularly, you might give them your class ring or letterman jacket as a sign you were exclusive. It was a big deal when that happened back then. People took dating seriously, but it was a slower, more deliberate process. There wasn't as much pressure to rush things, and there was a clear sense of stages in a relationship Looking back on it, I think that dating was a lot more innocent. There was more emphasis on getting to know someone through conversation and shared activities, rather than just jumping into a relationship. It was a little more formal but in a charming way. There's a certain nostalgia to it that you don't see as much today. But me and your grandmother still share that type of love.
Line 34
TS: That is amazing and so sweet that you share this type of love still. I think it is awesome and very sweet how this was what you had to do to get a girl back in the day. I could not imagine you giving a girl your football jacket back in the day.
Line 35
GS: I personally never did, one of my best friends did and they are still married to this day. Used to live about 2 miles from here.
Line 36
TS: That is so sweet. Keeping with a happy topic, what was some of your favorite media back in the day? What were some of your favorite music you listened to?
Line 37
GS: The 1960s were such a great time for music and movies, It was an era where you could feel the culture in the media we were consuming. The music was amazing and something I very much miss. The Beatles were a huge part of the soundtrack of that time. Their arrival in the U.S. with the British Invasion completely changed the music scene. I remember when "I Want to Hold Your Hand" came out and it felt like every teenager in the country was hooked. Their albums like Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band and Revolver were groundbreaking. You couldn't go anywhere without hearing their music, and that was the best part. But it wasn't just The Beatles that were popular at the time, there were also The Rolling Stones, The Beach Boys, and Motown artists like The Supremes and Marvin Gaye that really shaped the sound of the decade. I was obsessed with music when I was your age and would do anything I could to listen to all of the new songs no matter who made them. I also enjoyed Elvis Presley who was extremely popular in the early 60s, and his rock and roll style was a major part of our youth. My mom would always be singing Elvis songs in the kitchen while she cooked or did other things around the house and I remember when I was little she would dress me up like Elvis and I would run into the living room saying, "Hello there pretty mama", in my best Elvis impression. As the decade went on, folk music became a lot more popular with artists like Bob Dylan and Joan Baez becoming a way for people to express themselves, especially during the civil rights movement. The mix of rock, pop, and folk created this amazing variety of music to listen to.
Line 38
TS: That's awesome, I remember a lot about my mom talking about her mom singing those songs to her as well so it sounds like it stayed in the family well which is awesome. I think music from back then was very cool but I had no idea it made such an impact on the people at the time. It seems like you remember a lot about the music that was coming out and the artist which is very cool to me.
Line 39
GS: Music at the time was a way to escape from some of the things going on around you, as well as when you are out with your friends it is a great time to enjoy tunes we all knew the words to. I was also a big fan of movies back then but they were a lot harder to get to.
Line 40
TS: I was wondering about that, what were some of your favorite movies then and what did you have to do to watch them?
Line 41
GS: Watching movies when I was a kid was very difficult. We had to actually go out to the theater, and in a small town like Orofino, we didn't have a local movie theater on every corner. Sometimes we'd have to drive to a bigger town nearby. It wasn't something you did every weekend, so when you did go, it was a big event. You'd plan ahead, maybe get a group of friends together, and make a night of it. The theaters were often pretty basic, nothing like the multiplexes you see now, but that didn't matter, we were just excited to see the film and be at a theater. If you missed a movie at the theater, you had to wait for it to show up on TV, which could take a while. Also having working television in Orofino was pretty rare tell about 1967 I would say. There would be a couple of families that had them here and there, and some at the schools and such. But my family and a lot of my friend's families didn't get them to tell about that time. And even at that time when the films did come out, they would be edited for time and commercials, so it wasn't quite the same experience as the big screen. So, when you went to the theater, you really felt like you were part of something special. I also feel that in the 60s, going to the movies was definitely more of an adventure than it is today! Some of my favorite films were the big musicals and epics, like The Sound of Music and West Side Story. Those were huge productions with amazing soundtracks that everyone loved. I also got really into the James Bond series. James Bond was this larger-than-life character, and the action and style of those films were something completely new at the time. Television was also starting to take off in a big way. Shows like The Andy Griffith Show, I Love Lucy, and Bonanza were family staples. Very interesting and funny shows that you can watch in the house with the whole family. But toward the end of the decade, shows like The Twilight Zone and Star Trek brought something different with more futuristic ideas. It felt like the media was reflecting all these big possibilities that can happen around the world. Not as much as music, but movies were a huge part of life back then. They weren't just entertainment, they really shaped how we saw the world and reflected the culture of the 60s. Looking back, it was a great time to be a fan of both!
Line 42
TS: That is awesome to hear, I wish I could go back and experience what it was like going to a movie theater back then. I have never watched a movie from that period, but I do have to do a report one on for this class as well, do you have any recommendations that you think I would enjoy the best?
Line 43
GS: I always think it is really fun to rewatch the first Planet of the Apes, as well as the first James Bond film Dr. No. I think these are some of my favorites to go back and watch. that I would recommend for you to see.
Line 44
TS: Thank you I appreciate it, I have a question that I have been curious about and wanted to ask you. How did the effect of the assassination of JFK and MLK make you feel? Or how did it affect what was going on around you?
Line 45
GS: The assassination of John F. Kennedy and Martin Luther King Jr. had a really big effect on me and other people during that time. Both of them were seen as symbols of hope and change in the country, and their influence on people was way beyond just politics or civil rights. So much happened in the 60s like the civil rights movement and the Cold War. And these two figures represented a kind of vision for a better America which involved peace. JFK, with his youthful charisma, brought a sense of hope to the country. When he became president, there was this feeling that we were entering a new time. He talked about things like civil rights and equality, and although he didn't solve everything during his time in office, his support of those ideas gave people hope. It felt like we were heading in the right direction, even in small towns like Orofino. When JFK was assassinated in 1963, it was like the whole country stopped. I remember people were in shock, it felt like we had lost a leader who could have made real change. Then, you had Martin Luther King Jr., who was on the front lines of the fight for civil rights. His message of nonviolent protest was very inspiring, even from a distance. For someone like me, living in a small town, we didn't see the marches first hand, but we felt the impact of his work in the newspapers and on TV. King wasn't just fighting for Black Americans, he was pushing for a country where everyone had equal rights, and that was a strong message. The connection between JFK's vision and King's movement made it seem like the country was at a sort of crossroads. You could sense that something big was happening, and even though change was slow in Orofino, you knew the world was shifting. When MLK was assassinated in 1968, it was devastating. We had already lost JFK, and now, one of the most important voices for equality was gone too. But despite the tragedy, there was also a sense that their legacies would continue to inspire people. In a way, their assassinations, and then their deaths, brought people together in grief which made us talk peacefully. There was this feeling that even though they were gone, the values they stood for had to keep moving forward. For me, and many others, it was a time of reflection and a realization that change had to come, even if it was slow and painful.
Line 46
TS: Wow, that was inspiring to hear. I knew that it was a very hard time for a lot of people in America for many different reasons when both of these assassinations happened, but I didn't know that people were directly thinking of their impact when they died. I assumed that a lot of people felt more hate for the men who did these acts or confusion of why it happened, not as much as looking at the hope they provided and trying to continue what they were speaking on.
Line 47
GS: When crazy things like that happen people need to talk to each other to try to get over their grief, many of the conversations were about what they stood for and how it was a good thing. I think myself and others just wanted to make them proud in a way because we did believe in what they stood for.
Line 48
TS: That is amazing, I have one more question for you then we can wrap up this interview.
Line 49
GS: Perfect, I don't know if I can remember much else about those days.
Line 50
TS: I understand and appreciate all that you have given me. My last question is, if you could go back to the 60s and bring something back to now, what would it be and why?
Line 51
GS: If I could bring something back from the 60s to today, I think it would be the sense of community and togetherness we had back then. There was something about that era, especially in small towns like Orofino, where people really knew their neighbors, and we were more connected on a personal level. Families, friends, and communities would gather more often, whether it was for a church event, a picnic, or just a weekend barbecue. People helped each other out more, and there was this underlying feeling that we were all in it together. It wasn't perfect back then, but that sense of community really helped carry people through difficult times, and I think it could make a big difference in today's world too. As for an item I wish I could bring back, it would definitely be my favorite view master with all of the discs I had when I was young. It was those red lenses that you put to your eyes to see through and you could move to slides and watch small film-type things and other stuff like that. It is definitely a part of my childhood that I look back on often and I loved playing with that viewmaster. One of my favorite memories when I was a kid would be when my dad would get back from work and surprise me with a new disc to watch. I would love to bring that back and play with it again.
Line 52
TS: That is awesome, I really like hearing how close the town felt for you and the impact that it had on you. I felt that when I was being raised on the small island of Ketchikan, I felt those close connections and how that community feeling can make you be happier and have support in different ways. I also think it is awesome that you had a bunch of different discs for your Viewmaster. I remember being little and my mom had one for me to play with and it had all of the Disney characters, I can only wonder what you were looking at in yours at the time. That is really amazing to hear and I'm glad you have fond memories looking back at those times.
Line 53
GS: It was a great and simple time that I will never forget, I am really glad I grew up in the 60s and live my life now and really see how the world has changed so much and how much of a difference being kind can be.
Line 54
TS: Amazing I am so glad to hear it. Thank you so much for having this interview with me and letting me ask you questions about your past and record it for my class. I had a really good time hearing how your life was back then and how you felt about the numerous topics that I brought up. Thank you again for sharing your insight on life in the 1960s.
Line 55
GS: Of course, thank you for bringing me back to the old days, I hope I gave you enough information to work from. I appreciate you talking to me kid!
Line 56
TS: You did perfect and gave me more than enough information. I appreciate you very much and thank you again!

Sharon Stanley

Line 0
Sam Verharen: Hello, my name is Sam Verharen and I'm here with my grandmother Dr. Sharon Stanley. My first question just to start off is, could you please introduce yourself, including your current or former occupation.
Line 1
Sharon Stanley: Okay, my name is Sharon Stanley, I live on Bainbridge Island and I have eight absolutely gorgeous grandsons. I started working when I was 16 and I'm still working; I'm 82 years old. I'm a psychologist now, working in the field of trauma, and I'm just completed the second edition of my book on trauma that's used in the field of trauma and I just completed the second edition of my book on trauma that's used in universities on a doctoral level. So, that will be coming out in March. So I'm working hard and fascinated by it. And, this is an important part of it, the Vietnam experience.
Line 2
SV: So my next question is, what is your best memory of living through the 1960s?
Line 3
ST: Wow, that's a lot of years. Those are formative years. You know, when you first proposed the question about Vietnam to me, I remember standing on the beach in Guam, I was 22, 23 years old, and watching the planes leave Guam to do the first bombing in Vietnam and I believe that was 1965. But I can remember just my heart really pounding and I had your dad in my arms.
Line 4
SV: So, where did you live throughout the 1960s? And this is kind of a broad question, but what was your occupations during this time?
Line 5
ST: Okay, so starting in the 1960s, I was a college student, and I had a variety of college kinds of jobs. And in 1963, I cut short my education, and got married, and shortly thereafter left for Guam. So my occupation was mainly having babies for a few years.
Line 6
SV: And where did you, so before you lived in Guam, you lived where?
Line 7
ST: I was living in Seattle. After Guam, I moved back to Olympia. And your grandfather was hired as an assistant attorney general for the government of Guam. And then he was hired in Tacoma as, a judge at the age of 29. And we lived in Tacoma. And then from Tacoma, I moved to Victoria and finished my doctorate. And that was 1990. I started in 1990 and finished in 94, living in Canada. And then I moved back to the Gig Harbor area Tacoma area. And then I finished my thesis, worked for the University of Washington for a while and set up their counseling department at the new branch. And then I was asked to go on faculty at University of Victoria so I moved back up to Victoria and started working as a instructor but I also started working with Indigenous people, throughout Canada, so a way I'm lost in the years was, I only supposed to do till 1970.
Line 8
SV: It's actually great just to provide context. That's great thank you okay, so this is also maybe broad but how has the workplace environment changed since the 1960s?
Line 9
ST: Well, the workplace environment that I'm in right now is my own home and I could show you what that looks like but you already know so at that time, workplace was always more formal, much more formal, much more hierarchical, and it was it was pretty organized in terms of you expected to get a pension, you were expected to stay there for life once you found your place and then you expected you'd retire at 60 or 65 and have a retirement life. So that all changed after Vietnam.
Line 10
SV: What do you think made that change? Why do you think Vietnam led to that change?
Line 11
ST: There were so many different developments, and I think the social development that I noticed most particularly was when I went off to Guam in 1964. Everything was still very stable. When I came back from Guam in 1967, everything had changed. It was basically, for my generation, the people I knew that hadn't gotten married, and some that had, was the beginning of the hippie revolution. And people started wanting to do what they wanted to do. They took a stand. And so many of the young people my age were marching, and they were standing up for what was morally wrong, what they thought was morally wrong about Vietnam. And I think it was the beginning of a shift, what I call psychologically, from a role, R-O-L-E, role-oriented identity, that you took on a role, and you filled out that identity, to a person-based identity. You got a sense of what was right or wrong. You got a sense of who you were. You dressed to express that. And so it was much more of a shift, a radical shift in identity. It changed the workplace. It changed how people wanted to work. It changed jobs, from my point of view.
Line 12
SV: Yeah. No, and I'm sure it's very, very accurate. So what was your day-to-day life like, and how did that change in the terms of a modern context?
Line 13
ST: So at what moment in time?
Line 14
SV: So what was day-to-day life like during the 1960s? And how do you think that the day-to-day has changed in 2024?
Line 15
ST: Okay. Actually, my day-to-day life, after we came back from Guam, and we came back in, we came back before the end of the Vietnam War. We came back two years. So we came back in 66. And so then '66, through the end of that decade, for me was, I was very engaged with having babies, raising children, and helping my husband start his career. One of the things that I've noticed is that how affluent everything seemed, how much was available in the grocery stores, that was different. It seemed like there was so much more connection with the world rather than in our local area. And, that was the whole Civil Rights era, too. And I, I got a sense a lot of the Civil Rights movement came out of some of the destabilization, Vietnam, and that movement. I don't know, how, but I, I noticed, I noticed so many changes. My life was pretty stable at that time, but so many changes in my class roommates from high school, and people I'd known from college, that hadn't gone into the more domestic kind of role-oriented.
Line 16
SV: And you think that was Vietnam that did that? It kind of destabilized?
Line 17
ST: Well, it sure looked like that to me. Yeah. It destabilized so much. I think the campus, protests, Kent State, what happened there and, that there, there was just a it was a revolution of a sort from my point of view. Although, I mainly saw it from, like, from the point of view of the TV and newspapers. And I remember your dad seeing pictures, horrible pictures. They'd never show them now, and what was going on in Vietnam on the TV. He was born around '64, so he was there, and he, as a young child, watched a lot of that devastation on TV. We didn't really know how bad that might be.
Line 18
SV: Yeah, definitely. Do you think that affected being a mother and being a child during Vietnam?
Line 19
ST: I do. I think there was an unrest that happened. In fact, I think what's really interesting, Sam, is this book I have that changed my life, Trauma and Recovery, was written by a woman named Judith Herman, who was at Harvard. And what she did is she gathered all the data of the trauma of the Vietnam vets and their experience. What she was able to do is see that that was similar for the children and the spouses of the Vietnam vets, that the Vietnam vets came home with that trauma, and immediately their wives and children had that same trauma. So she showed how the domestic abuse and the violence in the home that rose exponentially after the Vietnam War was directly connected to the returning soldiers. And we were living in a community in Tacoma where there were five military bases. And so we saw all of the violence that was going on. There was a suicide epidemic in the schools. There was a huge psychological impact from that war.
Line 20
SV: Wow, that's super interesting. So this is kind of a switch of topic, but what was your favorite band to listen to during this time?
Line 21
ST: Well, the Beatles, of course. And, Sam, I got to see the Beatles.
Line 22
SV: Oh, yes. Yeah, that's right. Where did you see the Beatles?
Line 23
ST: Well, when your grandpa and I were coming home from Guam, it was a three-day journey, actually a four-day journey, because there was a there was a strike, the airline strike, and so we had to hole up in the airport in Honolulu. They wouldn't let us go out and stay in a hotel. I had two babies, and so I had to walk all around the airport with these babies, just as exercise and keeping them going, and the Beatles were marooned also in the airport, and so every chance I got, I'd go by and look at them. A couple of times, I'd say hi, and they'd say hi, and that was about the extent of it, so.
Line 24
SV: That is such a great story. What shows did you watch during this time?
Line 25
ST: Wow, that's a good question. We didn't have a TV. Yeah. We had a TV, and then we didn't. The news always. So it was in the 70s, we didn't have the TV. They always turned the news on, because everything was so unstable. I remember wanting to know what was what, and now as I go back, I remember it was mainly children's shows I watched at that time.
Line 26
SV: Really? What kind of children's shows?
Line 27
ST: Oh, puppets and, um, I wish I could remember the names of it.
Line 28
SV: Oh, that's okay. My dad always references TV shows he watched. He loves his 70s TV shows. So you mentioned you didn't own a TV during a the 70s. Why was that?
Line 29
ST: Well, I just did not like the influence on my children that I saw the TV had. Then Michael came home from school. One day, my mother said, 'I think I need to report you for child abuse,' and I said, 'Why?' She said, 'He said because we don't have a TV, and I can't enter into the conversations at school.' So anyway, I think we relented later in the 70s and got the TV. But yeah then I think everyone wanted to watch it all the time cause we didn't have it for a while, so it was forbidden fruit. But it was in a different area of the house that I usually inhabited. I was usually upstairs and we had a big TV room downstairs.
Line 30
SV: Do you feel the media had an impact on the way you viewed the world during the 1960s
Line 31
ST: Oh yeah the news did.
Line 32
SV: Why do you feel that the news had such a profound impact?
Line 33
ST: I think it goes back to the whole idea of trauma. I think hearing and understanding what was going on in Vietnam and the violence -- I think there was some kind of violence that I was exposed to that made me realize how horrific trauma was. I think it was talking to men who came home, my classmates. You only went over to Vietnam for a year, but there were so many damaged lives of people I knew. The young men, and now I'm reading the book by Kristen Hanna called The Women, which is about the women of Vietnam. So that topic has always fascinated me. But I think the impact of the trauma of the whole era is something I'm still trying to sort out, and its effect on me personally.
Line 34
SV: So do you think that that has changed today, news and its influence?
Line 35
ST: Wow, that's definitely changed, where there's so many alternatives now to the news. In those days, there were three major news sources, ABC, NBC, and CBS. And in those days, they told pretty much the same story. And they would get the one story that came from the government or the military generals, and that same story then was the story. Now there's so many stories from so many perspectives about the same experiences. And I think it's radically changed our culture.
Line 36
SV: Do you think that's a positive change or a negative change?
Line 37
ST: You know, I think there's been some positive aspects to it. But I think it has profound changes that we don't even know about yet. And I think the most profound change is the way we get news now and I think TV started it. But now with the internet, and the way it's so close at hand, every minute of the day, every minute of the night, what the research is showing is it's caused people, first of all, to have far less face-to-face connections. And so there's much less social engagement, which means much less strong mental health. Because the number one criteria of strong mental health is social engagement. So the day-to-day fy face-to-face encounters are down, for most people around 60%. And face-to-face encounters have a radically different three-dimensional effect than the one dimension. And they also have the experience of being in the same room, they can actually measure the energy going between people. And so sometimes it's nice to be around energy that's healthy and vibrant and vitality. But a lot of times, it's nice to have your sanctuary and your privacy. So you're not picking up on other people's energy or vibes. So but positive or negative, how do we stay embodied? And how do we trust our embodiment to tell us what's true? How do we get our do we get our facts from out there? Or do we get our facts from our heart? What's true?
Line 38
SV: Yeah. So I know this answer, but did you have children?
Line 39
ST: Yes, I did
Line 40
SV: And if so, with whom did you have them with?
Line 41
ST: I had them with Arthur Verheren, Jr. I had four
Line 42
SV: Do you feel what was expected of a mother in the 1960s is different from that of today?
Line 43
ST: Radically, radically different yeah I often am very grateful for the opportunity I had to be home with my children until they became school age and then when they became school age I became a school teacher so i had the opportunity to be there in their in their growing up. I think a lot of young mothers today don't have that opportunity and I think there's a grief that they carry and a grief their children carry.
Line 44
SV : Why do you think that has changed?
Line 45
ST: You know I've studied that some and how the economic world has radically changed. In the days that I was a young mother you could buy a house we bought a beautiful three-bedroom two-bath house with three acres brand new for seventeen thousand dollars your grandfather's salary was something like twenty thousand at the most but you know today a house like that would cost at least in the area I live in four hundred and fifty five thousand and somebody making a hundred thousand a year is doing good. So if you want to have a house and you want to have bedrooms for your children and if you want to feed them nutritious food you're going to need at least two incomes. You know it's just radically different economic system in those days food was food was so much less expensive and and you know it was much more taken for granted that you would put in a garden and you would grow and and there were many less things to spend money on you know. I made all all my children's clothes from pajamas to play outfits little indian suits and now so i was making a lot of their toys you know and I was making a lot of their toys. It all changed the whole commercialization uh changed what people needed and then I changed too.
Line 46
SV: Do you feel what was expected of a wife in the 1960s
Line 47
ST: It was different radically different right there was a role and what we have today is still that role that needs to be fulfilled but also the identity issue but yeah you weren't really a person you were doing something you were told to do and and you promised to obey when I was getting married and the catholic church that I was married in had very strict requirements for what it meant to be a wife,
Line 48
SV: What were those kinds of requirements?
Line 49
ST: Obedience. If you were asked to do something, you did it. I couldn't get a credit card, I couldn't have anything, I couldn't buy things in my own name. There was no... I had no rights to say no to purchases, large purchases. There was there was not an equality; it was definitely a hierarchical role in the family and it was a moral, religious, and legal. It was it had always been there, and there was a part of me that was a that was a a little more rebellious, and I know I saw that in my mother too, you know. And there was more I wanted out of life once my kids got in school. That's why I started becoming a school teacher, and then it was 10 years before I didn't turn my check over to my husband; I always thought I could keep my own check and keep any money from it so he got to decide what was purchased and when it was purchased and what we spent money on. I didn't have that control.
Line 50
SV: Wow, that must have been really hard to grapple with.
Line 51
ST: It was the way things were, and so to think of it being different then, you felt ashamed because you weren't fitting in; you weren't belonging, and so it could create a lot of problems. And I think that's what I'm trying to do, especially; it would create, it would create...as everything changed, and as things moved from the authoritarian to much more of a mutuality in relationships. As things changed, people didn't want to give up their power that had power. People wanted to hold on to their ability to control and to get what they wanted when they wanted to it with a smile, on every level.
Line 52
SV: Do you think there's still work to be done today?
Line 53
ST: Sammy, that's a big part of the work I teach is how damaging the patriarchy is and the way that patriarchy came out of colonialism which is the source of so many of these wars. But that patriarchy upholds colonialism. And you know, working with indigenous people, that's where they would shift the balance of power that kept indigenous peoples' societies beautifully structured. And so it would become much more patriarchal that's when the violence would begin and the ability to take over. So the work I'm doing particularly between its interesting we were doing a lot of work a couple weeks ago up in Alaska working with groups of women about how to have a mutuality with their partners, vulnerability to domestic abuse that's still rampant in cultures that are trying to heal from colonialism, and that's what Vietnam was trying to do.
Line 54
SV: Heal us from?
Line 55
ST: North Vietnam had just gotten freedom from the colonialism in France, and the United States didn't like that. And just like the United States doesn't like the presidential candidates we have right now and want to see the patriarchy established firmly as a religious evangelical certainty. And I think, in fact, my new book that I'm reading right now is 'The Kingdom, The Power, and The Glory' Uh, American, evangelicals in an age of extremism, and I think we need to go there and look at what that's about.
Line 56
SV: Yeah definitely. My Zoom, I think is running out of time, I'm gonna have to start us a new meeting because I don't have a Zoom plus, but we can just go until it stops.
Line 57
ST: If you want to keep going, great.
Line 58
SV: Oh no, yeah definitely. I have tons of questions.
Line 59
ST: so I'd love to finish the answer to that one too.
Line 60
SV: Totally go for it I'm sorry.
Line 61
ST: I know that's okay, I'll let it come back so you'll go ahead and make the shift.
Line 62
SV: So do you think that the expectations towards beauty standards for women have changed? And even men.
Line 63
ST: You know I think that the split in our culture around this extremism. We've got the split between the male and female. We've got the split between like the women that live on the island I live on don't get their nails gelled; they don't often, it's a sign of freedom if there's no makeup on. There's a natural look for some parts of the culture that consider themselves highly educated and well-traveled; then there's a different beauty standard for women who are remaining wha I think of often as subservient and need to please men, so there's that patriarchy and mutualism. And I think the gender changes that are happening in the world today is really ways to find different ways of expressing who you are on that spectrum from needing to have those standards of beauty to needing to feel healthy and real and alive, you know, and not try to alter things that are natural so I don't know if that makes sense but I see it, I see it as a class issue.
Line 64
SV: That's really interesting. Yeah, I know, totally do you think it was.
Line 65
ST: One more caveat yeah uh the very high upper class just can do it in much more expensive non-visual ways. Ways like faceless, mm-hmm, uh, but my experience is women who are secure in themselves. It's not usually their issue of how to look beautiful.
Line 66
SV: Do you think it was the same in the 60s?
Line 67
ST: Oh no, I mean, in the 60s, you had to look a certain way. You had to wear... I actually had a class in high school on how to apply makeup, yeah, yeah.
Line 68
SV: So what was the way that you had to look?
Line 69
ST: Well, the hairstyle - The 60s was all about teased hair and lots of lacquer. And it was about the right color lipstick. It was about eyebrows, weren't interesting except you had to have them plucked. You could use mascara, and rouge was used, and... You needed to be tan in the summer.
Line 70
SV: Why do you think that there were so many rules towards women?
Line 71
ST: To keep them in control, the only way patriarchy will work is if women are in control. And patriarchy and colonialism, which often has gotten connected with capitalism, it's not the same thing, has gotten so interwoven in some aspects from my point of view that it's all tied together. I mean, just look at the ads you see on different venues like what you see on one magazine might be radically different than another magazine but who are you appealing to in those magazines? The very wealthy or the very disempowered.
Line 72
SV: How did it feel to watch the Civil Rights Movement unfold in the 1960s?
Line 73
ST: ...
Line 74
SV: How did the Vietnam War affect you or your community?
Line 75
ST: ...

John Zor

Line 0
John*: Tell me when you're ready. I'm ready. Okay. My name is John* Jacob Zohr. I was born in New York but moved to California when I was 5 years old.
Line 1
John*: So I'm a California boy, and, I'm 78 years old. And live in presently Artesia, but grew up in Bellflower for 20 years. California. And that's in the Southland (Southern California). Okay.
Line 2
Zach*: Alright. My name is Zach*. I'm the interviewer. This is my grandpa. So I guess just to start with, you did say your age, but, what year were you born?
Line 3
John*: 1926, May. 19 sorry. One more time. 1946. 46.
Line 4
Zach*: Okay. May. Yes. Okay. So in the sixties, you started about 14 years old and until about 25, give or take?
Line 5
John*: Yep. That's about right. You know? Okay.
Line 6
Zach*: So I figured we'd start, with culture, just kind of the general, you know, happenings at the time. So, what kind of, television shows or what kind of books and things were popular at the time? What kind of media did you guys like?
Line 7
John*: I didn't really read much, you know, as far as books, just whatever they required you at school. I went to a Catholic school, started in 7th grade and graduated, you know, in 12th. And, movies, I used to enjoy comedy.
Line 8
John*: And like I say, such as the Beverly Hillbillies, also, I'm trying to think now, the Addams family Oh, yeah. And the Munsters. And, also, let me think again. I'm trying to think, and she was, I can't think of it right now. But, oh, I did watch, you know, I guess the pressure is putting on me with with Ephraim Simballis junior was in it. I can't think of the name of it. But, yeah, mainly that. And then, you know, once I was 61 or 62, I didn't watch TV that much. You know? We'd go to the show, go to the movies, you know, and stuff like that in the car.
Line 9
John*: Drive ins were big in my era.
Line 10
Zach*: Oh, yeah.
Line 11
Zach*: Did you go to the movies and things with your friends a lot?
Line 12
John*: Well, mainly with girls. And, we had a one drive in that that pictures might be a week or two older, and it was only a dollar to get into the drive in. You didn't have to pay for each individual, you know, which made it nice. And, so and and my, I bought a my first car was a 57 Ford. I bought them in 61, and I bought a, 62 Ford in 1963 with bucket seats. I went to the drive in with a girl. It was most comfortable that the having bucket seats, the passenger seat would fold down forward so you could sit in the back seat, a little more comfortable, we'll say, and, have a foot rest too That's pretty nice.
Line 13
Zach*: Yeah. Do you remember what you paid for the car at the time?
Line 14
John*: Why, sure. I paid, for my first car, the 57 Ford, I think I paid $450, and that was 61. And for the it was a 4 zero six Ford, which, was a race car, same like a Chevy 409, except it's a Ford that had a 4 speed, 406 cubic inch, 405 horsepower. And I did a trophy at Irwindale Raceway in it.
Line 15
John*: I think I turned the high fourteens, a speed about 92 or 93.
Line 16
Zach*: Wow. So I know I know you, enjoy, cars a lot. I know you used to collect them a lot more, especially when you were younger as well.
Line 17
John*: Yeah.
Line 18
Zach*: When did you start getting into cars?
Line 19
John*: Oh, I'd always been into cars. That's why I bought the Ford.
Line 20
John*: And, when I got out of the service, you see, my brother had a 61 Corvette that I used all the time. He was married, and I'd just go out to his place and, borrow his vet for, you know, Friday night or Saturday night or whatever. It was nice driving around. And when I got out of the service, I decided I was either going to get a Ford, Torino or an old 442. And I said something to my brother. He says, why don't you get a Corvette? You use mine all the time. So I did, and I bought a 66 Corvette. It was 2 years old. I paid $31100 for it, which I think knew they were about 45100, you know, and I still have that car also. And my brother who just passed away last year, December 17th, He still has his 61 Corvette, so we both still have our Vets.
Line 21
Zach*: That Vette is pretty cool. I've seen it. So I will say that's pretty crazy, the first car for $450. Do you remember generally what the economy is like? I'm not super familiar with it.
Line 22
John*: Oh, the economy was good and oh, yes. In 61. Yeah. I can't remember any recessions in 61', although we had one, like, in 58' that I recall. My brother worked at, North American. I don't know if Rockwell had bought him yet, but he got laid off, you know, for a small a short period of time. Yeah. And so I'd say the economy was good. And in the Southland where we lived, I mean, it was un unbelievable. We had Douglas Aircraft, and we had North American. Well, Douglas, Douglas had it and then, Douglas, was bought out by, you know, they merged with another company just like
Line 23
Zach*: Boeing. Right?
Line 24
John*: No. No. Boeing is a different era. That that is completely different company. You know, McDonnell Douglas is what we were called once McDonnell bought in about 1965.
Line 25
Zach*: Oh, I see.
Line 26
John*: North American Rockwell. And the thing about it is where I lived on Lakewood Boulevard in Bellflower, one was only 4 miles away and the other was 5 miles away. It's straight up Lakewood Boulevard. And the one thing about Douglas, they opened up in 1941, the big plant in Long Beach. And during World War 2, they had a 160,000 people employed at that plant.
Line 27
Zach*: At just that plant?
Line 28
John*: Just at that plant. Yes.
Line 29
Zach*: Wow.
Line 30
John*: I mean, I don't know I don't remember if at that time they were on a 170 acres or whatever, But, you know, it was big, and and that's where the Long Beach Airport was right alongside of it. I don't know if they built that right after or about the same time, but I thought that was a statistic I just read last year in a a paper. We go to this restaurant, then they have a local Long Beach paper, and in it, was, the information that I just gave you, which I was phenomenal. I knew, my wife, Janice, worked there in from 67 to the 1st week of 76. So I can remember when she got laid off. And I think then they employed about 40 or 50,000 people at that one plant. They had other plants, you know, in the south. Wow. The the southland (Southern California) was phenomenal. We had steel making plants. We had aluminum plants. We had tire companies. We had everything. Firestone was here. Goodyear was here. And since then, they've all moved out. Even the auto industry has moved out. Not just the Southland, but all of California. Tesla grew. Yeah. Texas and things of the like.
Line 31
Zach*: Wow. So that's pretty cool. I believe you worked for (McDonnell) Douglas for a long period of time. Would you describe kind of, I guess, I let's start with, let's say your community. I know you said you went to a Catholic school.
Line 32
John*: Yes.
Line 33
Zach*: Were a lot of your friends coming from there? What about people in your neighborhood? Would you kind of describe the financial situation of you guys, your family, and maybe the people around you?
Line 34
John*: Well, I'd say my family was more the upper middle class as far as financial. And, I live I'd say the area I lived in wasn't quite the upper middle class. My mother owned, property there. She had a bar, and, she, you know, built a television shop for my father, my stepfather, and then she bought some other property there. We had a barber shop and a rental, so we had a little property there. So like I say, I'd say she's more upper middle class. And, yeah.
Line 35
Zach*: Very cool.
Line 36
John*: No. I did work at McDonnell Douglas that I was hired in 1969. And I served 31 years at Douglas, and I was fortunate that I never got laid off. But I didn't work in the Long Beach plant. I worked in the Torrance plant, and it only employed about 6,000 people.
Line 37
Zach*: Wow. That's still a lot of people.
Line 38
John*: Yeah. And I was a blue collar worker. I wouldn't, they asked me to go to salary a couple times, and I told them I'm sorry, but I'm overqualified.
Line 39
Zach*: Do you remember what you, your wage was at least to start and maybe?
Line 40
John*: Oh, sure. I remember. I can tell you exactly what my wage was. I worked second shift, so I got 2.86 an hour, and I got 18¢ more for second shift, which put me at the 304 an hour. And then you went up from there. I think a a top a in my classification was making, let's say, on a day shift, not second, probably 3:40 an hour or in that range, 3:50 an hour. And this is 1969.
Line 41
Zach*: Is that considered pretty well for the time? Do you know?
Line 42
John*: Yes. Yes. I'd say that was a decent wage. It's, enough. I don't know. One person working could buy a house. It depends. New houses in 70, 71 in Cerritos were running, we'll say, 25,000 where you could buy an older Lakewood home, and the Lakewood homes were 3 bedroom, 1 bath, maybe 11 or 1200 square feet. And I think maybe you could get that for 15,000 or 16,000. It was that much difference. The Cerritos homes were usually all nicer, newer, and, 4 bedroom, 2 bath. Almost all of all of them had two baths where the Lakewood homes and and what's even funny is, some of the homes in Lakewood, they started maybe Lakewood became a city in 1947. And Long Beach thought that they were going to be able to absorb them because they didn't think they could afford to have a fire department or police. But what they did was, and I can't think of his name, but he was the mayor when the city started. Instead of having their own, they contract labor for fire and police. So they were able to start, and it was the first city formed since, I think, 1939. Interesting. In the nation, not just in California, but in the nation. They, they were the first city formed after World War 2.
Line 43
Zach*: Very cool. Well, I think I'm going to use this to start segueing into some questions about civil rights in general. So I'll start with a more open ended question, and we can kind of work toward, whatever comes forward. I guess, generally, how did it feel to watch the civil rights movements, unfold throughout the sixties if you didn't see it as much personally? Did you ever hear anything about it or stories, or did you have any interactions with it?
Line 44
John*: I didn't have in any interaction, with it at all. The blacks, none were around in our area at all. You know? And we'd hear about it. And the civil rights, I think, was mainly in the south. We'll say, you know? But we did have the Watts riots in 1965. It was in August. Yeah. And, the reason why is back then they didn't record. You know, the police didn't have cameras and people weren't recording, but I guess, and the police force I'd say was predominantly Caucasian. Yeah. I don't know if they had any. So they could say they discriminated.
Line 45
Zach*: Yeah.
Line 46
John*: I don't know. The circumstance was they pulled somebody over, and I think for drunk driving, And I don't know what they did to them, but, other people must have saw it and been there, and so they started the Watts riots. And, it ruined about 70 homes. And, this was in LA more or less off the Harbor Freeway, which is at 110 now. And, the fire burned for 7 days, a whole weekday. You know? And there was at least 30 people killed you know, during this riot. And, also, I went down and cruised the riots accidentally. I was in the backseat of a car. Yes. It was about midnight. I don't know. I think it was the first 2 or 3 days of it or something. We used to shoot pool or wherever the heck we were, and that was 2 other guys. I don't even quite remember who it was because you're talking back, you know, 60 years. We decided what we're gonna do is just go drive down the freeway and see, what it looks like, the fires. And sure enough, he got off just to see, and it was burning. And I can remember going down one of the streets and even seeing a guy coming out of a TV show or an appliance store carrying a television.
Line 47
John*: And then you see a 100 people standing on the other corner just watching the buildings burn. It was just sun Unbelievable. And, you know, it was summertime, so we had the windows down. And, a black guy pulled up next to us with his girlfriend or wife. I don't know. But he says, I'm getting out of here. They're even throwing stuff at me and whatever. They were even throwing stuff at his car. So we just got back on the freeway and left. But like I said, you know, I cruised the Watts Riots, which was really, you know, something else. It wasn't voluntary. And thank goodness I was in the back seat. I figured I could knock down and, you know, more so and even get on the floor if necessary if they started. We don't know if I don't know if they shot at people. But I'm saying may have thrown Molotov cocktails or started the fires. And you never know. They might try to pull you out of the car and beat you up. So we didn't know. And, so they were just taking a chance, but we got back on the freeway and got the heck out of there.
Line 48
Zach*: Wow.
Line 49
John*: Yep. So like I said and I know that, you know, back then, and the news wasn't on TV like it is today. You might have had a half an hour of news and maybe it was 6 to 6:30 or something like that. You didn't have it where it's on for hours and all these, you know, different stations. And so, you did have we did have a radio station on our AM radio, and it was 24 hour news. The reason why I know, not that I listened to it, I listened to music, but my stepfather, would play it all the time. So whenever we're in the car with him or whatever, he had this news, you know, the news going on. But I remember, you know, Martin Luther King's speech in DC. You know, you just caught some of it on the news where, I guess, a quarter 1000000 people or something like that showed up. And to me and I don't know if we're gonna get into it or another question. Out of all the decades in the 20th century, I consider the sixties the greatest. I believe it.
Line 50
Zach*: I've heard that be a general consensus from people that lived through the 60s.
Line 51
John*: A lot of people really enjoyed the sixties. There's a lot going on. I don't know if I should mention this now or later. You figure number 1, we landed on the moon in the sixties. Yep. 69 or 61? I think 69. No. 69. Yeah.
Line 52
John*: 68 or 69, we landed on the moon. And, and, in 1960, Kennedy was running for president, and he's the 1st Catholic ever, president of the United States. Although in 1928, we had, I think a guy named Al Smith or something run for an Erwin against Hoover and, but he lost.
Line 53
Zach*: So Was your family excited that Kennedy was elected president considering you guys were Catholics?
Line 54
John*: All the Catholics were excited, you know, that something like that happened, especially since I go to a Catholic school.
Line 55
Zach*: Yeah.
Line 56
John*: You know? So, I mean, it was fantastic. And when Kennedy was assassinated, I remember exactly, I was going downstairs. My school was 3 story Catholic school, and the, we had boarders there even. You know, you could stay Monday through Friday or however long. And I was going downstairs. I I forget why I was going by myself, and brother Knowles said the president has just been shot. He didn't he didn't say he was dead, but he said the president had just been shot.
Line 57
Zach*: Wow. Do you remember any of the, I guess, the dialogue or anything that happened kind of immediately after that?
Line 58
John*: It was on TV day night day night. That's all they had on was that and showing him in his limousine. And I guess since it was nice weather, they took the top off. And so he was riding, and I think it was in Houston. And he was riding, and that's how they got him. So, you know.
Line 59
Zach*: Wow. Did they show the the full footage live on TV of him being killed?
Line 60
John*: Yes. They did as I recall. You know, as much you I don't know if you could actually see him kind of get hit, but, I mean, you know, maybe he went back and stuff like that.
Line 61
Zach*: But, yeah. Yeah. I know the sixties were, it was kind of a very sudden change. I think it was more in the fifties, but when the average household went from having a TV, I think it was it was very few and far between. And then all of a sudden, like, 75% of households had a TV. So everyone was consuming the this news every day that, know, they weren't used to getting before besides, you know, radio or newspaper.
Line 62
John*: When you figure and back then, everybody had black and white sets. You didn't have colored sets. There might be a few percentage of color, but not many of the programs were even in color. Even some of these ones that I still watch, you know, on TV, we have color TV, but they were made in black and white. And then later on in that in the sixties, they started making them in color.
Line 63
Zach*: Okay. Well, I guess stepping back into civil rights for a little bit, I remember you were talking about the Watts riots. Do you remember seeing or hearing about a lot of these demonstrations that were happening around the time, whether it be the boycotts or anything like that?
Line 64
John*: No. No. But, like I say, the reason for it was, how could you say? In well, up till 68, I think, until Johnson signed it, you didn't have to rent to blacks. You didn't have to, you know, you could discriminate. I think even in the sixties, we didn't have that problem where we live. But, I mean, even going into a restaurant or anything, You, you know, they weren't even allowed to use some bathrooms and stuff. Now that was more in the fifties. We didn't see anything like that where we lived because we didn't have any blacks around. We had a high percentage of Hispanics and some Portuguese because at that time, Bellflower, Paramount, Artesia was farm country, dairy country. And they we even had Dairy Valley here, which in which is Cerritos now. I don't know what they've had, but all the dairies moved to Chino, which is, not far, 30 miles away, we'll say. And, I watched Hugh Howser. I did. He passed away in 12, but they have repeats of him. And he did a special on Chino, and Chino was the largest dairy or the largest, dairy farms in the world. They have 300,000 cows.
Line 65
Zach*: Oh my gosh, that is a lot.
Line 66
John*: And since then, you know, Chino has started going down, you know, because residential, the houses are moving in. Like I said, that was it on that. You'd see some on TV, you know, and they they'd show it, but you gotta remember at that time, 65, 66, was what? 7 18, 19 years old.
Line 67
Zach*: Yeah.
Line 68
John*: You're not that interested in that. And a lot of that more was happening other than our riots, in the south. So you just the news.
Line 69
Zach*: That is something more that I hadn't really considered a lot is, you know, at a younger age, you're more con you're kind of concerned with, you know, what you're gonna do to for your job if you're gonna go to school for things like that.
Line 70
Zach*: Uh-huh. And, you know, you probably heard of some things, like, in passing, but you're not watching the news every single day.
Line 71
John*: No. Not at all.
Line 72
Zach*: Was that ever a topic of conversations with, like, your family, or did you ever you know, what was the dialogue surrounding that, or was it more like,
Line 73
John*: You mean you mean for, how so?
Line 74
Zach*: I mean I guess around, like, maybe desegregation or about civil rights. Was there you know, was anyone in your community for it or opposed to it?
Line 75
John*: No. No. I don't think it was hardly even a topic of conversation Yeah. Other than what you'd hear on the news. Like I said, we didn't have any that live close. And so, you know, it isn't, you know, quite the same. Yeah. But I know, like, when the police pulled him over, that, you know, they were, like I said, predominantly Caucasian, and they discriminated. And, even in housing, you know, that, they couldn't move where they wanted and even if they had the money. Like, in most cases, I mean, you may even hear that about actors. I forget which one they brought up. Nat King Cole or something who bought a house in a predominantly Caucasian neighborhood, I think, which was, you know you hear that on the radio or stuff like that. You know?
Line 76
Zach*: Yeah. No. That makes sense. Especially in an area with not many black people that, you know, it wouldn't really be that much of a topic of concern. That makes sense.
Line 77
Zach*: I wanted to segue a little bit into, I know you were, deployed in Vietnam. Will you go into I wanna start with, I guess, the draft. We'll start with, how did you feel about the about the draft? How did, the people around you feel about the draft?
Line 78
John*: Well, I had 3 good friends, and, I worked at a place a restaurant called the Valley Button. You know, we sold hamburgers and stuff like that. It wasn't an indoor restaurant. It was just an outside, like, a tasty freeze or something like that that Or In N Out Burger or whatever you wanna call it.
Line 79
Zach*: Yeah.
Line 80
John*: And, the one I think was in the marines and the other one was in the army, and he told me no matter how shitty it is, 2 years is only 2 years. So he's just and the 2 of my friends went into marines, and that's 3 years. The other one in the air force, and that's 4 years. So I did what he said, and I just let him draft me.
Line 81
Zach*: Interesting. So it sounds like I guess, correct me if I'm wrong, but more or less, they believed it to be just kind of something that was going to happen, kind of get used to it.
Line 82
John*: That's right. You know, it's just something you had to accept. I didn't know anybody that went to Canada, but later on, of course, I was drafted in 66. But, you would hear people that went to Canada, and they didn't do anything or try to get them. And I don't remember what president or whatever would finally will say, what could you say, allow them to come back without any prison time or anything? And I don't remember what prison or when that it might have happened in the nineties. I don't know. Maybe even in the eighties. I'm not sure.
Line 83
Zach*: Interesting. So at least your in your community, there was not so much. But do you remember hearing any, like, anti draft sentiment or any, like, anti war sentiment in in the area?
Line 84
John*: No. Not really. You know? I mean, you just had to accept it and that was it.
Line 85
Zach*: Yeah.
Line 86
John*: You know? And you just got drafted. I was lucky in the school I went to. I think graduating class was only 50, and none of us and I think almost everybody went in to the service of one branch or the other. And none of us died in Vietnam. Very fortunate. One was pretty well injured. I don't know even maybe a little mentally, but, you know, all of us made it back. Unbelievable.
Line 87
Zach*: That's really cool.
Line 88
John*: My 60th reunion is tomorrow night, and then the following night is so, you know, my 60th reunion. Yeah. I don't know how many are going to show up. I didn't check with who's in charge. But, because he said a lot of them live in Nevada and, you know, live across the nation. So and for your 60th, who knows how many are going to show up?
Line 89
Zach*: Yeah. Well, that'll be fun. I hope you enjoy that. I was going to say, I guess, feelings about the war in general. Did they opposed to it more or less or just it sounded like more or less kind of neutral. Were they angry, or was anyone angry about, like, the reasons they were fighting? Did they kind of fully understand? Or?
Line 90
John*: I think that it was just accepted, and that was it. At least where I am, I know there are there were some protests. Matter of fact, I can remember, it was up in (San Francisco) Frisco, and I don't know which college it was at, but they were protesting. And the Hells Angels, I think down here, volunteered to go up and break it up. No. And they said no. They would let him go up there. They were gonna take care of a protest up there on the war. You know? So and I knew some of the Hells Angels from where I worked. A few of them came in, I would see. Yep. Okay. I'll tell you a good story about one of them. I got to know a lot of the police well too, especially in Bellflower. And, one of them told me they caught a Hells Angel riding around the block, and he just put the engine and the frame together, and he caught them. No license, no nothing. He says, I wrote up stuff on that ticket that didn't even exist. You know, that's what he told me because I was I was in good with quite a few of the police.
Line 91
Zach*: Interesting. That's a good story.
Line 92
John*: Mhmm.
Line 93
Zach*: Okay. I will say, what was kind of the feelings about communism? Was that ever a topic of discussion? I know there was a lot of kind of, like, like, the lavender scare or the red scare, more feelings about communism. Was that ever a topic of discussion?
Line 94
John*: Not much. In the fifties, it wasn't so much communism, but scared of nuclear attacks and they taught you how you're supposed to go down and cover your head and get under your desk. Like that. No. I don't think communism was discussed too much. Although we did have, I think, in the in the late sixties, the Cuban crisis Yes. You know, which, you know, where we even blocked off, you know, with our, naval ships blocked off. So I guess nothing could get through to Cuba. I don't know if you know about that or not. And so, that was, you know, scary somewhat. But like I said, you know, we just heard about it and then, you know, went from there. And, as far as communism, no. I do remember something about oh, that was Reagan, and that would be in the eighties where he says tear down that wall. Like that.
Line 95
Zach*: So I do remember hearing a lot about, like, the nuclear drills. They would have kids in school, you know, tell them, get under your desk. You know? But was that, like, a common fear? I guess, you know, the average person, if it happens, there's not much you can do about it anyway. Was that ever like a was that a worry about nuclear war happening a lot?
Line 96
John*: Believe it or not, just a couple blocks from me at that time, and I think they're doing it again, they were building I don't know what they cost. But in your backyard, they would build you a shelter or whatever you want
Line 97
Zach*: Oh, really?
Line 98
John*: Underground where you could get I don't know all the statistics on it back then, how much they cost or what all it consisted of. But I guess they felt since we lived in Southern California and all these aircraft corporations around Yeah. We would definitely be bombed. So probably nuclear. So, I know one place, you know, put it in. I you know, I'm a kid. Yeah. 14, 15 years old. And so, otherwise, I'd love to go over and take a look in it.
Line 99
Zach*: So Yeah. So some people were very scared of it. It sounds like a lot of people just more or less live with it, you know, thought there's nothing they could do about it anyway.
Line 100
John*: Exactly.
Line 101
Zach*: Okay. Well, getting into the draft, so I believe you've told me a story about how if you correct me if I'm wrong. If you volunteer, you get to kind of choose how, like, with the service you perform. Is that incorrect?
Line 102
John*: I think somewhat you could. Otherwise, if you volunteer for the draft, but you're not talk not draft, not for 2 years. I think you'd have to volunteer for 3.
Line 103
Zach*: Oh, interesting.
Line 104
John*: Depending on where you're going to, in order to get that. Not, you know, being drafted, they just do with what they want with you, but I was an exception. And that was and then I gotta tell you this. When I was drafted, they swore us in. There's, I don't know, 20 rows and 6 abreast. And they said the first two rows are going into the marines. Yeah. And I was in the 3rd row. So I got to go to the army instead of the marines.
Line 105
Zach*: Wow. Lucky you. Because that's an extra year or 2?
Line 106
John*: Even if you went in the marines, if you're drafted, you only goes 2 years. You know, there's no difference in time. It's just that, you know, the well, you know. It's I'm everybody says "I'm an ex marine". You hear anybody say I'm ex army? No. It's so And so a marine. So, you know, they got more intense. Would say, you know, stuff like that.
Line 107
Zach*: Mhmm. So can you tell me the process of being drafted? Did you get something in the mail and then have to go somewhere? Yes. Well, when you turn 18, you have to go down and, to the draft board or where
Line 108
Zach*: (recording cut) So I'll just get back into it. I'm gonna rephrase, just the last question just in case it got cut off. I think the last thing it got was, you don't hear a lot of people saying I'm ex Army. You hear I'm ex Marine a lot. So I was gonna say the process of getting drafted, how that happened? Can you explain that?
Line 109
John*: Well, sure. I think it'd be the same no matter what you go into. I went down to LA. You know, I got my draft notice, went down there. They give you a physical and, you know, go through. Some people can, you know, once you pass I can't remember. I think I don't remember if we took the test then or not. No. I think don't think we took it till later. They just check you out physically and stuff like that and make sure, you know, that you're capable and, in good, you know, decent physical condition. When I went that's the first time, then they call you back to go when they take you. And since I went in the army, I went to Fort Ord, which is up close to Frisco along the coast. And I can remember a guy in front of me, and he must have went and got stretched because I think there's, like, a limit of 6 foot 6. They don't want anybody bigger than that. They don't have the clothes and the shoes and the stuff on. You see? And so, they asked them, well, you know, you're above going. Do you still wanna go in? He says, no. That's fine. I go because I didn't hear where you can go get stretched.
Line 110
Zach*: Really?
Line 111
John*: Be surprised if yeah. I didn't hear that till the late seventies. And the only reason I heard that is a friend of mine, who was Japanese. His brother wanted to get into police force. He's about a half an inch too short. So he went and got stretched so he could pay to get in. Back then, they had a, let's say, a height limit of 5'9", let's say. I'm not sure.
Line 112
Zach*: Interesting. I'd never heard of that before. Was there was there a lot of people doing things to get in or at least out of being drafted?
Line 113
John*: Well, they do what they can. You know?
Line 114
Zach*: Yeah.
Line 115
John*: I don't know. Maybe he had a loan problem. You know how people do have, even at that age, have something wrong or something like that.
Line 116
Zach*: Yeah. Okay. Well, I guess I will say let's get into, so from the time you noticed, would do you remember when you got the notice that you were being drafted?
Line 117
John*: Oh, I imagine 2 months, 3 months before, something like that. It might be a long time before.
Line 118
Zach*: Okay.
Line 119
John*: And, you know, you know, and then I reported in and then went to Fort Ord and, did my basic, and we were restricted there because they had I forget what it was, but there was something going on to where we didn't really get to leave the barracks. And on one side, the windows the bottom windows were open, and on the other side of the barracks, the top windows were open. And it was colder than blazes because we're right on the ocean. And this was to cut down I you'd have to look it up to see what they had, but Ford had something that they had had before. So we were more or less restricted to everything. We couldn't do anything other than, you know, they take us and bring us back to our barracks, and that was it.
Line 120
Zach*: Interesting. So how long did you spend at the barracks before you were deployed?
Line 121
John*: Oh oh, No. You first you go to basic.
Line 122
Zach*: Oh, basic.
Line 123
John*: Basic. That's 8 weeks. Then they send you home for 2 weeks, I think it is. And then you go to AIT, which is advanced individual training. You know? And when you're in basic, you take all sorts of tests and stuff. And they asked me but they offered me all sorts of jobs, you know, things. And they said something about medic. I said, what I figured working in a hospital, women, this and that. I looked at it the other way and, you know, I went in for medic and they gave me medic. I found out my last couple months in the service why I got everything. I mean, even right down when I finished my events individual training, which was in Texas, that's where they trained medics, Fort Sam Houston, Texas. Everybody that I worked was in the service with me, you know, the medics and the doctor. They got me, a letter a form they wanted them to fill out. I was kind of a test individual to see if I would continue. You know, since they let me be what I wanted, this and that.
Line 124
John*: They even asked me when I finished AIT, advanced individual training, where did I wanna go, Alaska or Hawaii? Now you know I'm gonna say Hawaii. Who wants to go to Alaska? Then they said, in the states, where would you like to go? I said, from California. They said, what part of California would you like to go? I said southern, and they sent me to Fort Irwin, which is, you know, a 120 miles from or a 150 miles from where I live. But that's where the unit formed that I went to Vietnam with was there. So, I mean, they let me have everything, and then at the end, being a medic, they offered me a $6,000 to re up, but you have to join for 6 years to get that money. And I said, although I'm a striped troop, no. I'm a civilian. Alright. You know, you can keep this. I'm going home. So that been joined for 6 years, and I've been the equivalent of sergeant in less than 2 years.
Line 125
Zach*: Really?
Line 126
John*: Or you could do 5, which is the same thing as a sergeant. The difference in pay is $1. And another cute thing, when you get drafted, you get $78 a month. And then when you make e 2, it was $89 a month. And when you get e 3, e 3 is when you have a corporal and you have the one stripe on your sleeve, a $121 a month. Now this is someone that's under 2 years. After 2 years, you get more money, but I don't know how much. I could ask a friend of somebody that, you know, that we were in together and we were medics. And he's in Alabama, and I talk to him every couple months. You know?
Line 127
Zach*: Interesting. Sorry. I was gonna say, I never knew that you were more of a test case. So was that you were the test in the sense that they didn't ask everyone where they wanted to go?
Line 128
John*: No. No. No. Just me. And I got what I asked for being a medic and where I even went. You know? And, except I did go to NAM. I didn't ask for that, but they, you know, gave me everything else there. And, like I said but, and I could have even been an officer.
Line 129
Zach*: Do you know why they chose you?
Line 130
John*: It depends on how you do on your tests. You know, but you have to go I can't remember how long OCS officers training school is. But the only thing, you would have you had to wait I didn't wanna be an officer. Okay? But it's you had to wait almost a year before you didn't get into officer school. And I forget if that was for 6 months or something. And then after you become an officer, you still have to serve your 2 years or whatever. So people, you know, if you wanna make the military your, and a couple lieutenants we have did, you know, they did that. They went to officer training school. I said, no. I just wanna go in and out. You know?
Line 131
Zach*: Yeah. Interesting. So actually getting to when you were actually deployed in Vietnam, can you describe what that was like?
Line 132
John*: Well, number 1, I was with the 6th and the 7th, 7th artillery, so it wasn't as bad as being in the infantry. And I went to, they sent a 100 troops in a in an advanced party to Vietnam with them, and then the 400 of us went onboard boat. We went over to Vietnam onboard ship, and I went on the USNS Gordon, which was a World War 2 military transport. It was 1966. I'm going on that to Vietnam, and it took, 23 days. We went through, well, what was nice, we did go through the Philippines, and it was beautiful. You know? I you know? The trip, I can't say I enjoyed it. And every morning, they would kick you out. At 8 in the morning, you had to go topside till noon. Whether it was raining or whatever, you had to go to noon. I'm still outside. Then you get back for lunch and then, I guess, whatever else you could do. You know? But, but, I know for at least 2 weeks going across, they had what we call the JC flick, the Jesus Christ, you know, movie, and it was Protestant. But we go down because you'd sit down below and you'd watch, on Jesus Christ, the whole movie from the beginning on through on Jesus Christ. So that's what we did every morning. I don't know if it was like for an hour, hour and a half. I don't remember for sure, but rather than staying topside Yeah.
Line 133
Zach*: I'm sure it's better than nothing.
Line 134
John*: Yeah. Better than getting rained on or something. And they did have a, what was it, a PX will say onboard ship. So if you're tired of that junk, you could go get something to eat. I'm not saying a dinner, but, you know, you could buy, you know, certain things, you know, to help you fill up. You didn't wanna eat that. So and so I was on board ship for, 23 days, and, we go into the Philippines, into Sumic Bay. They let us off base, from, like, 9 in the morning till 10 at night or 9 at night, maybe 12 hours. They didn't let us off base. You could had to stay on base, but at least, you know, you were free to roll in, which was nice.
Line 135
Zach*: What was, what was kind of the attitude towards, you know, being on a on a boat to Vietnam among everyone there? What was what was it kind of like? Was it-
Line 136
John*: No. It I played, cards almost every day on topside, and we had one guy who we, playing, and he'd win all the time. And I think, yeah, I mean, I just he was too good. Whatever it was. So but, yeah. And I ran across the guy, you know, because you meet them from all over. There's I forget how many onboard ship. I don't remember how many. Maybe 3000 or 4000. I don't remember. But, he lived in Bellflower. He just lived a mile and a half away from where I was. You know? He was married and lived in an apartment.
Line 137
Zach*: Interesting. So once you landed, what was it like? What happened next?
Line 138
John*: We got off just like you see in World War 2. We crawled, on the ship. We came down the net. We then got into a, a boat or a landing craft. Not that there was any fire or anything like that, you know, and went to, and landed on the shore. You know, they took us right up and dropped it. I don't think I don't even know if our peak got wet or not. I don't recall. And, the thing about it is my daughter, Suzanne, has went to Vietnam, and she went to Cu Chi, and that's where they have the museum for Vietnam. Everybody goes to Cu Chi, and her boyfriend found my picture getting off the, you know, the landing small landing craft onto the onto the shore, which is fantastic.
Line 139
Zach*: That's unbelievable.
Line 140
John*: 45 years later after that picture, and he found it. And so she sent me that, and that is me. You know? I even sent it to my friend Walker in Alabama. And, he said, yeah. That's you. There's no doubt about it. I mean, and it it's a good picture. But they have different pictures up, and they luckily saw that. I never expected them to even have a picture of that because we were not base camp or anything. We were at, like I said, just a landing grab getting off.
Line 141
Zach*: Well, I will say, would you describe some of, maybe what your daily routine looked like while you were in Vietnam?
Line 142
John*: Well, it depends. We were, at base camp, and our base camp was Cu Chi, spelled c u c h I, and, two words. And, there, I was a medic, so anybody had a problem, they would just come in, and we had a doctor. Both doctors that I was with were both drafted just like I was, and they served 2 years. And the one was 26 years old. Can you imagine he became a doctor? 56, and he wanted to be a orthopod. You know? And, they gave him and said, no. We've let you go through and become a doctor. You'll have to wait till after you serve your 2 years to go back and become an ortheopath.
Line 143
Zach*: So an orthopath?
Line 144
John*: Orthopedic specialist.
Line 145
Zach*: Oh. Oh, gotcha.
Line 146
John*: That's what he wanted to be. So he had the other doctor, and he was 26, the other doctor we had was 31 years old. You know, he was married and had a kid or 2 and what have you. Both nice guys. So in in base camp, which our base camp was a mile by a mile, and I have beautiful pictures of the whole base camp. And, we would just take care of, you know, normal stuff. And if anybody's serious, we'd send them to the hospital in, on base. You know, we'd have regular big hospital. And what was nice being medics and where we were, you know, our, where the 6th and 77th was, we had a bakery across the street. We had an ice plant that we got good with. They made the I don't think no. I think they made the ice in either bakery, made bread, the ice plant, and, oh, a laundry facility right across the street from where we were. So being medics, they come over. If they need a shot, we give them a shot. Anytime we want anything like that in base camp, we get it. And I got pictures of us with a party at the at the at the ice plant, you know, the guy there. And now we would go, then they'd send us out to the field.
Line 147
John*: Most of the artillery, there was 3 artillery. What did they call it now? It was we had supply headquarters. I was with headquarters. Supply is another battery. Then we have a, b, and c, and that's where the guns are. 6 guns in each one. Okay? And so what they do is take us out to the field, the whole unit. And that's when, we went out to clean a hobo in Lobo Woods. Now we would come back to base camp and, one cute story is since I was also the clerk typist, I could type. Nobody else could, so I got to be the clerk typist. And that's what I do in the morning. I was, at the desk or, you know, when anybody come through. And, and I take care I had to take a report from the doctor that no matter where we were, I would fly into base camp, retype that up, and send it over to the, surgeon general, which was on, you know, on base. I think there was 10,000 on our base.
Line 148
Zach*: That's a lot of troops.
Line 149
John*: In Cu Chi. So it just so happens, and no matter I fly in the colonel's helicopter. I fly whatever was going to bait back to base camp. I get the plane, and I have good pic a lot of pictures. And, I mean, we'd fly all the time, but we'd fly in these Chinooks with the twin rotors. You've seen those helicopters?
Line 150
Zach*: Yeah.
Line 151
John*: We've in those, you usually they load us up and carry the guns too, you know, underneath. And, the Chinooks would hold 9,000lbs, and they had flying cranes, which was you've seen with just one big chopper. It would it could hold 18,000lbs. Wow. I would fly back and forth. So it just so happens, this one time the doctor had to go back with me to basecamp to do this. The Bob Hope show was on. So we landed. We both went to the Bob Hope show, and that's when they had Raquel Welch. So I got to see Raquel Welch in Vietnam. That would be the 19 67, thing.
Line 152
Zach*: That's really cool. It was a live show?
Line 153
John*: Oh, yeah. Bob Hope, you know, he every year, he would go and take people and put the show on for the troops. You didn't know about that?
Line 154
Zach*: I did not. I think I'd heard of it before that, you know, they would come and have people do live shows for the troops. But that's really cool.
Line 155
John*: Would tour for, I don't know, a month or something like that and go to different base camps and put out and Raquel Welch was with them. You know? And I have pictures of her on stage and everything. I took my camera, which was great. And, the other thing, like I said, we would treat patients that came in, and most of the time, what the troops would catch was, the urethritis acute gonococcus, better known as gonorrhea. And we had this nice sergeant. He was a little chubby, about 27, 28. And, he came in and he caught he caught gonorrhea. We called it the clap, you know. And so, I love, you know, comedy a little, and I like to joke around. So he, you get 2 penicillin shots, 1 in the morning, 1 at night for 3 days. And, you come in, we cannot we don't have to tell when you're sergeant or anything what you're in for. You just came in for treatment. You know? So he came in and I, a nice guy. So I thought, well, what I did is I got a irrigating syringe and I pulled it down, and I put a big 16 gauge needle on it. You know? And as he's taking his pants down, and he's looking at me, and we all busted up laughing. You know? But he thought we were really gonna give him that. And the other guy was, you know, medic was standing there with with the regular penicillin shot.
Line 156
Zach*: That's like a giant syringe. Right? The one that you were pretending?
Line 157
John*: Clean your ear with. Oh, yeah. That's an irrigating syringe. And I put a needle on it. It wasn't even straight. It was leaned over a little because it just wouldn't sit straight. But he thought that was it. He started dropping his pants and looking at it. You know? That's pretty funny. So Uh-huh. Okay. And one time out in the field, we had a problem with somebody, and, the doctor said, you know, take him down, get him going on the next chopper going in. I walked the patient down there, and I said the doc wants to have flown in. Well, this and that, whatever (Officer disagrees). I say, no problem. I went back and got the doctor. The doc all doctors are captains. Okay. Doctor came down. He said, you put this guy on the chopper now. Yes, sir. You know, when I asked him, he wouldn't do it, but the doc came down and said, you put him on now.
Line 158
Zach*: And they listened?
Line 159
John*: That's right.
Line 160
Zach*: So Wow. So did you spend a lot of your time at base or in the field? Would they would you take, like, a vehicle? Would you fly out?
Line 161
John*: Oh oh, no. When we were in the field, we didn't take vehicles. We you know? And matter of fact, I'm trying to think. What was it? I think we get breakfast from the mess hall, but lunch and dinner was flown in on helicopter.
Line 162
Zach*: Oh, really?
Line 163
John*: They would send, at least, containers with the food to feed everybody, you know, on that. No. I spent quite a bit of time in the field, but, you know, 2 or 3 weeks or whatever and go back and then maybe another couple weeks and and stuff like that. You know? But I wasn't in the field constantly, though. Yeah.
Line 164
Zach*: So what basically, when you were, doing your medic duties, what did that kind of include when you when someone was injured or what was, like, a common thing that you would treat people for?
Line 165
John*: Usually, we didn't have that much. I mean, we did get a few that were injured and, you know, shot. And, what could I say? We would just do the best we could with them, bandage them up and what have you, give them an IV if it was necessary, and we call them a helicopter and they fly them out. We don't mess with them. You know? They go Yeah. You know? That's what we would do. Mhmm.
Line 166
Zach*: So just doing mostly the best that you could for them and sending them to a doctor if need be?
Line 167
John*: Yep. You send them into the hospital, you know, whatever to emergency. They put them on a chopper and, just ship them out. You know, that that's what happened. We didn't have a lot of injuries. You know? So, what ours was up in the field, we would get mortar and rocket attacks. Yeah. We would set up. It wasn't just us. I mean, at one time, we always had 105 howitzers. They had bars. They had 155. (Mortars, guns) We were circled by, you know, a big circle in the jungle. What we were doing was supporting these wrong plows to cut down the jungle is what we were doing. In those cases. And I just got to go to a, because you know the trench were in Vietnam prior to us. 53, I think. The NBN II was where I think they made a I got to go to a, French fort, a small fort, yep, one time. And I didn't take a few pictures of it as best as could. You know? So that's it.
Line 168
Zach*: You've mentioned a lot about taking pictures. Did you have, like, a lot of free time to take pictures, or was it more in between when you had, like, patients you had.
Line 169
John*: No. We didn't always have patients. Yeah. Like, we're not busy all the time. Oh, no. Like, if I was in the chopper, I take pictures. Even the other medics would take pictures. We're out in the field. I mean, we get shot at in mortars and stuff, and I can remember one time we got a call and I answered the phone. Be advised we're under attack. Can you imagine that? That's how the guy put it. And what he meant was there was mortars coming in. Yeah.
Line 170
Zach*: So Was that a pretty common thing? What were the kind of feelings about it? Was everyone very worried?
Line 171
John*: Well, heck, yeah. You run, now what we would do, the medics and, you know, since we we were individuals that compared to the other groups, we had our group of 6 and whatever. We would build as soon as we got in, we would build cubicles for us. You know, there was 6 of us, so we built 6 little, 3 by 3 out of sandbags. It might take us you know, it doesn't matter. I mean, like, we're going anywhere. We'd have this, and we use that. So in case of an attack, you go and hide in there. And, you know, so that's what you do. You'd have a retreat. And one time and, we were I forget quite remember where we were, but, there was a underground bunker, we'll say, that was already built where we were at. And we gotta think, we're under attack. I said, doc, we're under attack. Yeah. I said, I gotta get over there. You know? He says no, you get under. And right where I was gonna go, the mortar landed.
Line 172
Zach*: Wow.
Line 173
John*: I would might have been dead or injured. I kept telling, I have my what the heck did they call it? My otherwise wound where I get to go home and nothing wrong. But, I still have one spot.
Line 174
Zach*: I was more or less surprised when you said that. You know, you didn't have, like, a lot of injuries.
Line 175
John*: Were you just talking about the I was in the artillery. We're not in the infantry. The infantry is where you get a lot more, you know, when they're out in the field. Although they did send us out in the field a couple times when we're there, like, some colonel, captain, or something gets the idea, they want us to go through out into the jungle and look for stuff. And everybody said goodbye to me because no one knows if you're coming back. And we were, nothing happened, and we found 25,000lbs of rice or something out there, you know, that they were hiding through the Viet Cong. You know, just traipsing through the jungle. But mainly, we just got dropped in by helicopters, and then our area was secure. Although, one time, the vehicle did try to attack, and these 105 howitzers are good for 8 miles. They have shotgun rounds where they just lower the barrel straight, and they put in these rounds, and it's just like shooting a shotgun.
Line 176
Zach*: What was, I was gonna say, the rhetoric around you guys knowing that you might have to kill people if it comes down to it and constantly fighting for your life? Were people kind of under the-
Line 177
John*: Just accept it. That's how it is.
Line 178
John*: Yeah. You know? So I can hardly ever remember anybody, you know, being the other way. I know sometimes I pull in that bunker and, you know, I'll call, you know, our little cubicle with sandbag. And, I crawled up into a little ball because I think that stuff is coming down so close. And if anybody gets injured, then we have to go, you know, treat them and send them out. Yeah. But the doctor is there also. So, I mean, we do the best we can to bring them back to him. You know, I was mainly with the doctor at all times.
Line 179
Zach*: That makes sense. One thing I was wondering is, did religion play, any kind of role? I remember you talking about, the movies about Jesus Christ when you were on the transport. Was there was religion a big part of your life or around the community?
Line 180
John*: Not a big part of my life, but, yeah, you know, when we had it, I would kind of go to church and so would the others or, you know, we had a Catholic priest come out, you know, whatever. I didn't go to church every Sunday at base camp. No. You know, I don't think most of us did. Some of them, you know, you know, like that. But in base camp, we have a church. And, I mean, in base camp, we had everything. We had a pool hall, everything. Just, you know, px's (cafeteria) and, you know, and like I say, our camp is big, a mile by a mile. I'll have to bring my pictures and show you sometime.
Line 181
Zach*: I would love to see those!
Line 182
John*: The reason why I have so many printers is, believe it or not, my sergeant that I had, sergeant Pelfrey was from Germany. And he came over and got drafted and came over as a kid. I get I don't remember how old he was, but he, oh, he had worked in the cafeteria or something during World War 2. And he, you know, a little something, whatever, helping. And, he came home with a certificate, you know, they gave him. And when he brought it home, his mother tore it up. She thought if the Americans come through and see something like that, they'll kill us. Yeah. That's what we say. I don't know how I don't remember how old he was when he came to America.
Line 183
Zach*: Interesting. Just sometime in between World War 2 and Vietnam?
Line 184
John*: Pardon?
Line 185
Zach*: Sometime in between World War 2 and Vietnam?
Line 186
John*: Oh, yeah.
Line 187
John*: After World War 2. So maybe in the fifties, and then he got drafted. He just stayed in and made his career. You know?
Line 188
Zach*: That's really cool he got you into taking pictures. I just wanted to ask some more questions, kind of just about your personal life. It doesn't have to be specifically about Vietnam, but a couple things. Around the time, this could be before or after, what was dating like? Were you in a relationship before, after Vietnam?
Line 189
John*: I was actually in a relationship before I shipped over. I've known her for about 6 months. And sure enough, I got well, you know, what is my name? John*? So what do you think I got all the time? Dear John*.
Line 190
Zach*: Oh, dear John*.
Line 191
John*: You never hear of dear John* letters?
Line 192
Zach*: No.
Line 193
John*: Oh, dear John* is like, dear John*, you know, we're breaking up and this and that. That's what they call the dear John* letter. I did I did get a dear John* letter after a few months.
Line 194
Zach*: You did get a breakup letter?
Line 195
John*: Yes. I did.
Line 196
Zach*: That's unfortunate.
Line 197
John*: Believe it or not, 2 months later or something, who do I get a package from? You see, I met Janice in Blenda at 65. And I did see Janice before I went to Nam, though, I, also was seeing and her name was Suzanne. And so I don't know why Janice let me name my daughter Suzanne? But, not that it was that big a breakup. No big deal.
Line 198
Zach*: Just to clarify, Janice is your wife, and you have a daughter named Suzanne.
Line 199
John*: Yes. Exactly. Exactly. And Suzanne knows it.
Line 200
John*: Janice told her a few years back and she said, I hope I never meet her. Too bad, you know.
Line 201
Zach*: So after you got back from Vietnam, did you start you started dating grandma Janice?
Line 202
John*: No. Grandma Janice got engaged to my best friend. I'm the one that met her in 65, her and Glenda. Oh, they even sent me, a care package, you know, for Christmas and stuff, and she'd write letters. And, well, she got engaged to George. It was my best friend that was in the marines. Oh, I came then he went to Vietnam. You know? And so she was home, but that that isn't what did it. I, you know, but she eventually broke up. She was gonna send him a dear John* letter. I said, you know, just wait till he gets back and, you know, give it to him. You know? So, so that's what happened there. But now no, I had another girlfriend or 2 in between. There was Jackie. There was Marilyn. And, no. Bellflower was fantastic for cruising and women. I mean, the different girls I met. You know? So I got what if you if you wanna hear a good one. We were, pulled over on Boulevard. This is before we went to service. And, you know, it was heavy cruising. You know?
Line 203
John*: And, like, you know what I mean by cruising. All the cars going by back and forth. It was about a mile, mile and a half. We had an A and W that you pulled into. And we pulled over with, to talk to a friend and his fiancée. And Jurgen and I got in the back seat. You know, it was a 2 door. We're both sitting there. I got on the driver's side. He got on the passengers. But we're sitting on Bellflower Boulevard. They're just, you know, maybe 50 feet or a 100 feet from the light. And when we're done talking, I said, why don't you go come up here? You know, so y'all can come back and pick up some women, you know, jokingly. And so Jurgen got out the driver the passenger side. I got out the driver side, and there's a girl in a car in a Chrysler by herself. I put out my thumb like a hitchhiker, and she'll unlock the door. I got in the car. This guy sees it and so does Jurgen, and I left him there. But all we did is cruise down, whatever got her number, come back, and then I got Jurgen. But you see what I'm saying? I did this in front of my in front of Jurgen and in front of this guy and his fiancée.
Line 204
Zach*: Well done. That's pretty smooth. I was gonna say, what were some things you guys did, like, going on dates? I know you mentioned drive ins.
Line 205
John*: Yeah. We go to the drive in, and I can remember I took a couple girls to oh, you go to Disneyland, Knott's Berry Farm. At that time, you've been to Knott's. But back in the sixties until up to 65, you could get into Knott's Berry Farm for free, and then you just pay and you just pay for whatever ride you wanna go on. But you can walk around it. And, I don't know if I ever told you, but I I've been married three times.
Line 206
Zach*: Really?
Line 207
John*: Yeah. Twice at Knott's Berry Farm by judge Roy Bean, but I got screwed on the honeymoon both times. You know? So once you go in and for a buck or something, he'd give you a marriage certificate and supposedly marry you?
Line 208
Zach*: Oh, that's very good.
Line 209
John*: Janice has that. I married her and not married her at Knotts Berry Farm. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah.
Line 210
Zach*: So 3 marriages, not too bad.
Line 211
John*: Yeah. (recording cuts)
Line 212
Zach*: Anything you wanted to mention that you had before I lose you?
Line 213
John*: Like I said oh, the reason why I have so many pictures is my sergeant is the one that talked me into getting the camera. And I bought a Pentex Spott Matic in Vietnam at the PX, and we're talking it was a $100.
Line 214
Zach*: Wow. That's expensive.
Line 215
John*: Yes. And, Stanley (Brother), I got him a camera that was a 100 and a quarter, even better. And and Penntek's Photomatix was the first time you could get a camera where it had the light meter inside. Before, you had to take, you know, get the light meter reading to take the picture. That and that's why I took I took 300 slides in Vietnam. Out in the field and this and that and whatever. He talked me into it and so did. But I gotta tell you another thing. Walker, Richard Wade Walker is from Alabama, and we were in Nam together, you know, all the time. And but he stated he had joined. And our our favorite saying was, we advance to the rear. Advance to the rear. We don't retreat. We advance to the rear. You know?
Line 216
Zach*: That's pretty good. That's pretty good.
Line 217
John*: And, we everybody flies back from Vietnam to home, you know, or to Frisco. And, when I came back, Jurgen, who I've known since I was 13 years old, and, was right there where we drove back. And I got his phone number, and so his gave him a day off or 2. They came and picked me up, took me over and showed his barracks and stuff because we're there for a day or 2 until we ship out. Yeah. Oh, and if you really wanna hear something that's freaky, you could not leave base camp unless you had your helmet, your flak vest, your rifle, and everything. Okay? Never they'd let you leave base camp. When they take you down to, Saigon or even Saigon, the other town next to it, they put you on a bus and you don't have nothing. And then you could that bus or do whatever. Oh. Can you imagine that? I couldn't believe it. Here, you have all that and then they put you on a bus. I don't think I've ever heard of a bus being shot at, but I don't know. You know, you don't necessarily hear all the information. You know?
Line 218
Zach*: Interesting. Did you ever interact with, civilians while you were in Vietnam? Yes. I was in charge of the sandbag dollies for the last month. Okay. Every yeah. Sandbag dollies.
Line 219
John*: What do you what does that mean? Okay. They were young you know, women, young, some young, middle age, or older, and I would go pick them up rather than going out and being shot out in the any jungle or whatever. They let me be in charge of the sandbag dollies. I got out I got to come home before the rest of them because when I went to, I only had 10 and a half months to do. Army does 12 months, marine do 13 months. And so, I would go pick them up every morning, and I just stay with them, and they would fill sandbags to put all over, you know, whatever they needed and, you know, to for a building or what have you. And they call them sandbag dollies. And I got pictures of the sandbag dollies, and that's what I did every day for, I don't know, 2 or 3 weeks or something like that rather than going out and possibly getting shot.
Line 220
Zach*: Yeah. That's a pretty good deal. Did they speak any English at all, or were you just kind of there to keep an eye?
Line 221
John*: Yeah. A little. And matter of fact, come to think of it, the barber we would go to a Vietnamese barber on base. They had brought all these people in on base to do the jobs. You know? And, I'll have to tell you another good one too. I told the lieutenant or captain. But the barber that cut my hair, I swear he smoked marijuana while he's cutting my hair. You know?
Line 222
Zach*: Well thank you for sitting down and talking to me about this, Grandpa. I Really appreciate it, it was really cool hearing about all of this.
Line 223
John*: Of course. Of course. Well I love you, I hope you got all the information you needed.
Line 224
Zach*: I think so! That was great. Have a good one, I love you too.